Military jet engines to commercial jets

[HostileIntent]

A few questions

I've been looking around to see when military jet engines made their way into commercial air planes or when modified military jet airplanes made their way into commercial aircraft fleets in the United States, Britain, and other countries.

Essentially: Who was the first major commercial airlines to begin using jet engines in their planes? Also which engine was it and had that engine been initially designed for military use?

Help pls

[Gumpokc]

Circa 1949
The first commercial jet airliner was the De Haviland Comet shown below. Some of the early Comets suffered disasterous fuseladge failure due to cracks around the windows. These early failures have lead to improved designs and fuselage failures now are very rare.


also...
The early jet engines were not particularly fuel efficient and were used for military applications. It was discovered that gas turbines could provide fuel efficient engines and the first successful commercial airliners used turbines to power propellors, the the so called 'propjets' or "turboprops". Air Canada was the first major airline to adopt an all turbine fleet. The Vickers Viscount was followed by the Vanguard

so it all depends on exactly what your looking for.

and btw, that info took about 30 seconds to find in a google search.

[Mr.P]

as an extra, the BOAC operated the Comet, and the BOAC only. They had exclusive buying rights on the first run, and since they never made any more.....

I can't think of any military aircraft that have made their way into commercial fleets, at least United States military planes. US military cargo planes are built to maximize their lifting capacity, not floor space. Not to say that they couldn't carry a good number of people, but not as efficient as commercial airliners. The same can't be said for Russia though, where lots of their military and civilian cargo planes were the same builds.

Generally it operate somewhat backwards in the US. Commercial aviation is adopted to military purposes, most of this consisting of the aerial tanker fleets. Commerical carriers also fly MUCH more modern equipment in comparison. Most commercial carriers retire their airframes in as little as 10 years, usually no more then 20. They're then sold for scrap, or to smaller airlines. The military meanwhile, well, hell, look at the B-52. The KC-135 is based off the Boeing 707, which hasn't flown in commerical fleets in decades. The military doesn't have to worry about adapting to new noise/pollution guidelines, or worry about passenger comfort, or fuel economy since they can aerial refuel. Thus, as long as the airframes still are safe to fly, they're usually maintained in the cargo fleets.

[Toastar]

I heard that because the US government loaned a lot of money for carriers like FedEx they can actually use their planes when needed

[Shadow]

Here's one for you...the Gulfstream IV uses Rolls Royce Spey turbofans. These engines were derived from the ones that were installed in the Royal Navy's F-4 Phantoms.

[GoatChomper]

Commerical carriers also fly MUCH more modern equipment in comparison. Most commercial carriers retire their airframes in as little as 10 years, usually no more then 20.
Generally true, but there are exceptions such as American Airlines and Northwest Airlines.....their fleets are mostly comprised of 727s and overall have the oldest airframes in the industry. Not surprisingly, AA and NWA are also among the airlines currently in the worst financial shape.....it costs a lot of money to keep them running when the parts producers have mostly ceased those lines in favor of newer items.
I heard that because the US government loaned a lot of money for carriers like FedEx they can actually use their planes when needed
Couldn't say if that's true, but chartering the privates for large overseas deployments is the norm.....DoD uses the hauler fleet to move major items and charters airlines to move the troops.

In the event of national emergency, federal law contains provisions for nationalizing the private fleet.....might as well, as reserve Air Force pilots comprise an enormous percentage of the private carriers' pilot pool.

[Shadow]

Couldn't say if that's true, but chartering the privates for large overseas deployments is the norm.....DoD uses the hauler fleet to move major items and charters airlines to move the troops.

In the event of national emergency, federal law contains provisions for nationalizing the private fleet.....might as well, as reserve Air Force pilots comprise an enormous percentage of the private carriers' pilot pool.

Although I'm Australian, I've read about this - realistically, when a carrier goes to purchase new aircraft, they purchase in bulk, being more than four of a type. It is in this situation, that because such aircraft cost so much, they go through the government for a loan, and a section of the agreement is in a time of national crisis or war, those aircraft may be commandeered by the US government for transport purposes.

[Mr.P]

Generally true, but there are exceptions such as American Airlines and Northwest Airlines.....their fleets are mostly comprised of 727s and overall have the oldest airframes in the industry. Not surprisingly, AA and NWA are also among the airlines currently in the worst financial shape.....it costs a lot of money to keep them running when the parts producers have mostly ceased those lines in favor of newer items.

Heh, yeah, that's why I don't fly AA or NWA, if I ever saw a 727 waiting for me I'd ask for a refund. After talking to a couple pilots (my mom's boss's 2 sons are commercial pilots) I do my best to find 737 flights. Obviously they're not the most comfortable planes, being small, but according ot them they have the best glide characteristics of any commercial plane. Thus, no engines, mechanical failure, etc, better chances of arriving safely. Plus, I can tell really quickly which 737s are new, because the new ones have a oblong engine intake instead of round.


As to the goverment taking over the fleet, yeah, but in certain cases the government can take over pretty much anything related to transportation. The railways have been nationalized during wartime on several occasions. Gas rationing can, essentially, control the highways in war time too.

[Prowl]

civil air liners aim for a better specific fuel consumption figure, military is normally more focused on specific impulse.

other than the Spey, Rolls Royce develops the engines aimed at a particular customer/airframe and thus you do not see military engines installed in civil airliners since the engines are designed for specific airframes.

Also it is apparently true that the Federal Government can commandeer US registered civil airliners under an agreement to do with loans, though I'm pretty sure I read it in a series of tom clancy novels (or stephen coonts)

It's actually more often that civil airliners are incorporated into military fleets. The Nimrod for example is a modified Comet and without the windows in the roof which caused the problems it is a very reliable airframe.

[GoatChomper]

Plus, I can tell really quickly which 737s are new, because the new ones have a oblong engine intake instead of round.
And don't forget the vertical wingtip strakes.

Want a safe flight? Go with Southwest.....not one fatality in their twenty-plus years of operation.

[Mr.P]

Generally the only airline I fly if they fly where I'm going. Great customer service too. They accidently sent our bags to Oakland instead of San Jose a few years back, and the manager of the ticket counter actually drove them down the next morning himself and gave us a $50 reimbursement for any clothing we had to buy the night before. Had that been any other airline they would have said "They're somewhere, we'll try to find them by the time you fly home".

[CheeseSteakJim]

Generally the only airline I fly if they fly where I'm going. Great customer service too. They accidently sent our bags to Oakland instead of San Jose a few years back, and the manager of the ticket counter actually drove them down the next morning himself and gave us a $50 reimbursement for any clothing we had to buy the night before. Had that been any other airline they would have said "They're somewhere, we'll try to find them by the time you fly home".
Now that is impressive. You're talking about Southwest?

[Mr.P]

Yessir. Its no frill flying, no meals, no movies, etc. They give you a seat, and get you there on time with one of the safest records in the industry, with one of the cheapest fares to boot.

Whole reason that the big airlines are getting killed right now is that they spent so much time and money putting in giant seats and crap. Now that the economy isn't super, and gas prices have climbed, the only airlines that can maintain competetiveness are operations like Southwest. They're the only major airline that has maintained profitable operations the entire time since 9/11. Good stock choice too. Off topic though :)

[CheeseSteakJim]

Yessir. Its no frill flying, no meals, no movies, etc. They give you a seat, and get you there on time with one of the safest records in the industry, with one of the cheapest fares to boot.

Whole reason that the big airlines are getting killed right now is that they spent so much time and money putting in giant seats and crap. Now that the economy isn't super, and gas prices have climbed, the only airlines that can maintain competetiveness are operations like Southwest. They're the only major airline that has maintained profitable operations the entire time since 9/11. Good stock choice too. Off topic though :)
Damn. I know who I'm using from now on.

[GoatChomper]

Whole reason that the big airlines are getting killed right now is that they spent so much time and money putting in giant seats and crap.
Not to mention ridiculously overcompensating their executives with triple-digit salaries and double-digit bonuses despite posting quarterly losses.

Strange but true story.....during Southwest's birth, their CEO went to Las Vegas and gambled a huge chunk of his own funds to meet their first quarterly payroll.

[SWATJester_os]

as an extra, the BOAC operated the Comet, and the BOAC only. They had exclusive buying rights on the first run, and since they never made any more.....

I can't think of any military aircraft that have made their way into commercial fleets, at least United States military planes. US military cargo planes are built to maximize their lifting capacity, not floor space. Not to say that they couldn't carry a good number of people, but not as efficient as commercial airliners. The same can't be said for Russia though, where lots of their military and civilian cargo planes were the same builds.

Generally it operate somewhat backwards in the US. Commercial aviation is adopted to military purposes, most of this consisting of the aerial tanker fleets. Commerical carriers also fly MUCH more modern equipment in comparison. Most commercial carriers retire their airframes in as little as 10 years, usually no more then 20. They're then sold for scrap, or to smaller airlines. The military meanwhile, well, hell, look at the B-52. The KC-135 is based off the Boeing 707, which hasn't flown in commerical fleets in decades. The military doesn't have to worry about adapting to new noise/pollution guidelines, or worry about passenger comfort, or fuel economy since they can aerial refuel. Thus, as long as the airframes still are safe to fly, they're usually maintained in the cargo fleets.

Not all airlines retire 20 year old frames....Delta has many 727's left, though they're being phased out for Embraer 145 regional jets and they've purchased rights for the new Eclipse regionals. Plus delta LOVES the canadair regional jet. I think the ba105's (not sure ont he model number, it's the highwing 4 engine turbofan regional that looks like a c130, tops at 450kts or so, NWA and united use them for flights in the mountains in colorado.)

Plus I've seen some OLD ASS 747-200 and 747-400s in service.

Just cause the airframe is old doesn't mean the structure, and avionics don't get upgraded with each annual inspection.

[Mr.P]

Not all airlines retire 20 year old frames....Delta has many 727's left, though they're being phased out for Embraer 145 regional jets and they've purchased rights for the new Eclipse regionals. Plus delta LOVES the canadair regional jet. I think the ba105's (not sure ont he model number, it's the highwing 4 engine turbofan regional that looks like a c130, tops at 450kts or so, NWA and united use them for flights in the mountains in colorado.)

Plus I've seen some OLD ASS 747-200 and 747-400s in service.

Just cause the airframe is old doesn't mean the structure, and avionics don't get upgraded with each annual inspection.

I didn't say ALL airlines, nor all airframes, but on high travel routes, 20 years is the norm. I also don't mean to imply that they get mothballed or whatnot as soon as they've hit their time, they just get re-sold to another operator. There are certainly plenty of cases of older aircraft flying, particularly expensive aircraft like the 747. In general though, the 20 year deadline is pretty well used by most US carriers.

[SWATJester_os]

Yeah, but you're going to see that change. They're going to start moving towards having MORE airframes, of smaller regional jets, or long range mini jets, that can take less gate time, be more fuel efficient, and have a longer life with more upgradability. Look how many airframes Eclipse has sold already, and they've not even gotten FAA cert. yet.