multiculti in Europe a failure..per the NYT

[nyarlathotep]

Even if they produced no other positive result, the attacks on the London Underground have compelled Europeans of all faiths to think with new urgency about the Continent's Muslim minority. Such a reckoning was long overdue.... What Europeans are waking up to is a difficult truth: the immigrants who perform the Continent's menial jobs, and, as is often forgotten, began coming to Europe in the 1950's because European governments and businesses encouraged their mass migration, are profoundly alienated from European society for reasons that have little to do with the Middle East and everything to do with Europe. This alienation is cultural, historical and above all religious, as much if not more than it is political. Immigrants who were drawn to Europe because of the Continent's economic success are in rebellion against the cultural, social and even psychological sources of that success....

Tony Blair just proposed new laws allowing the deportation of radical mullahs and the shutting of mosques and other sites associated with Islamic extremism. But given the sheer size of the Muslim population in England and throughout the rest of Europe, the security services are always going to be playing catch-up....

The multicultural fantasy in Europe -- its eclipse can be seen most poignantly in Holland, that most self-definedly liberal of all European countries -- was that, in due course, assuming that the proper resources were committed and benevolence deployed, Islamic and other immigrants would eventually become liberals. As it's said, they would come to ''accept'' the values of their new countries. It was never clear how this vision was supposed to coexist with multiculturalism's other main assumption, which was that group identity should be maintained. But by now that question is largely academic: the European vision of multiculturalism, in all its simultaneous good will and self-congratulation, is no longer sustainable. And most Europeans know it. What they don't know is what to do next....

Figuring out how to prevent Europe's multicultural reality from becoming a war of all against all is the challenge that confronts the Continent. It makes all of Europe's other problems, from the economy to the euro to the sclerosis of social democracy, seem trivial by comparison. Unfortunately, unlike those challenges, this one is existential and urgent and has no obvious answer.

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/magazine/WLN111159.html)...but it's pay for story, I just snatched it from http://pcwatch.blogspot.com/

So, is it as hopeless as they say?

[pro kossu]

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/magazine/WLN111159.html)...but it's pay for story, I just snatched it from http://pcwatch.blogspot.com/

So, is it as hopeless as they say?

I dont even understand what they're saying.

It seems that "immigrants ... are profoundly alienated from European society for reasons that have little to do with the Middle East and everything to do with Europe. This alienation is cultural, historical and above all religious, as much if not more than it is political."

What does that mean exactly? How does it show? As terrorism?

Cultural alienation - They wear different clothes?

Historical alienation - They have different history?

Religious alienation - They go to different church?

What is the problem?

[kreket]

I believe that article is total BS.

First of Tony Blair probably has good reason to evict those guys. They are not your run of the mill European muslim. Britain has been a tinsiest bit more liberal than the US or the rest of the EU.

Second, the muslim populations see themselves as French, British, German, Nordic, etc.. When you attack by terror indiscriminate you don't ask questions about who believes in what. Muslims might even have a better understanding of this than the average European. They also have a generational differing and are all coloured with impressions from Europe. Some in the second generation of immigrant might see themselves as more European than Middle Eastern.

Third, saying that Europe is unknown to multiculturalism.. ..excuse me but what the fuck does that fucking writer use for fucking brains?!? "A war of all against all"... ...Europe is multicultural in definition and has a history of clashes indeed. That person thinks we are naive little children unknown to the dangers of the world. Pfaah! Visit Switzerland after the French crumbled in the early 1800s and tell me we're unknown to a bit of cultural difference and diverging opinions getting out of hands. Name any war who's name is based on the years it took to fight it and chances are that it is in Europe. Heretics, catholics, ortodox, muslims and jews have been in conflict for a couple of years longer on this continent than the US have recorded history. Apart from the obviously pretentious formulation, have that writer got any clue on who has had most race riots of the US and the EU the last twenty years? It's peacefull here. If somebody makes a problem in the civilized parts of Europe, the police acts according to laws. You get a trial.

Apart from those rants, I do see it as a problem how they tend to make out a new lower class. I do see it as a problem that there are elements who believe in violence. Our schoolsystems, democracy and welfare state will remedy some, but not all. Yes, there are obviously going to be problems but we are not totally blind. FFS, this is the continent that had WW2 all over the place. We're not going to be impressed by anything less than a full scale destruction of entire cities or towns, because both the axis and the allies have outdone Bin Laden by extreme margins.

Europe's ethnic problems are more often to do with older problems than recent immigration.

[marty]

What is the problem?Well, the only example that comes to my mind is the Gastarbeiter problem that happened in Germany. I don't know if it's a big deal anymore, though.

[kreket]

Took a peek at the site. Obvious idiot.

Wouldn't be the first asshole who said that we "got to shoot people before they start an ethnic conflict with us!!11§§|!" and meant it. Living next to someone is waaay to provocative. Self righteouss little piece of shit doesn't even know he is a great issue against my security than the average muslim.

[pro kossu]

Well, the only example that comes to my mind is the Gastarbeiter problem that happened in Germany. I don't know if it's a big deal anymore, though.

Guest worker? Sounds like a name invented by someone who wants to label immigrants as "guests" who should take a hint and return home.

Dont know anything about that, but it seems a moot point now that Germany is in the EU where workers enjoy freedom of movement within the EU.

[M123]

Guest worker was the name for the immigrant workers in Netherland too and they were supposed to go home after they finished working. Ofcourse they didn't and brought over their family.

There are some problems, but nothing to serious.

[marty]

Guest worker? Sounds like a name invented by someone who wants to label immigrants as "guests" who should take a hint and return home.

Dont know anything about that, but it seems a moot point now that Germany is in the EU where workers enjoy freedom of movement within the EU.
The West Germans encouraged Turkish people to come over to help recover their economy after WW2. I think it became a problem after reunification because it was hard to reintegrate the East Germans into the economy because the job demand wasn't too high (the Gastarbeiters had them filled up). The Turks had been there most of their lives and had kids who only knew living in Germany. Then the government started asking them to leave and "go home".

That's the only thing that irks me about a few continental European countries... Almost nonexistant immigration... Sure you can be a refugee or political asylee, but it seems like the most you could ever be other than that is a "guest". That's no where near as crappy as Japan, but that's for a different thread ;)

[Canuk]

Why should a country allow anyone who wants to to immigrate? Countries are sovereign and can decide on their own who they want to allow within their borders.

[GoatChomper]

Guest worker? Sounds like a name invented by someone who wants to label immigrants as "guests" who should take a hint and return home.
Sounds more honest than those in this country wont to refer to illegal aliens as "undocumented immigrants".

[marty]

Why should a country allow anyone who wants to to immigrate? Countries are sovereign and can decide on their own who they want to allow within their borders.
IMO they're just setting themselves up for failure

[GoatChomper]

And in the latest evidence of politically-correct absurdity, a local article today referred to a pair of aliens working illegally here as "travelling Latinos".