Reject our law, culture and our customs, that's fine, now GTFO!

[BlindSite]

Recently in Australia for those of you who don't know, there's been a large debate over the muslim population particularly in Sydney, Newsouth Wales and in Melboure, Victoria.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/michelle-grattan/were-talking-but-the-young-are-missing/2005/08/23/1124562864557.html

This debate extends to the fact that many Muslim communities will for lack of a better method of expression, buy a neighbourhood and transform it into a form of Ghetto. With the entire suburb or suburbs be all muslim families going to predominantly muslim shops etc etc. The problem with this is that many of these communities have ties with leaders who speak out hatefully against Australian Culture.

The people living in these areas themselves have been documented to harbour anti Australian view, whether they be legal, cultural or political. Many speakers who go to Islamic sermons or rallies will talk about the evils of the Australian people and why it is the duty of the members of the congregation/s to separate and even hate regular australians.

It is getting to the point that many people are calling for a conform and accept of get the fuck out policy. One I must say I agree with. The Australian culture is exceptionally diverse but that does not mean it does not exist and having men and women COME TO this nation and then refuse to accept it makes me sick. They errode our language and our way of life by hating what we do and stand for but wish to remain in the nation. I believe that any men or women and their families who are found to be in possession of literature or undertaking anti australian behaviours and activites should be deported, if they're citizens then they should be tried and imprisoned should they be found guilty.

Before you jump down my throat with the buzzword "xenophobia" or dare to call me racist, I have no fear or hatred for the muslim people or any ethic majority or minority, I do however have a deep seeded hatred to any and all who seek to errode my way or life and the nation that I love and call home. Crimes against our culture and our way of life should not be tolerated and I think that showing greater intolerance to expression of this form could bring about greater security. I do not want to see all muslims deported but I do wish to see something done about the erosion of our culture, language and way of life by the same people who believe Osama Bin Laden to be a hero or freedom fighter and wish harm upon the citizens of the west.

[pro kossu]

Should you start deporting people of other ethnic back rounds who speak against Australia? Say, caucasians.

How about prisoning those who actually break the law?

[Apoc]

I wasn't aware that Australia required people to agree with it wholeheartedly and "act Australian" in order to live there. God forbid people be able to speak in any manner other than politically correct (ooh, that'll upset the conservatives here). You act as though "culture" is something static or able to be defined in narrow terms. I hate to break it to you, but you can't do such a thing. The Aborigines have their own culture as do boys educated in Catholic schools (you, for instance). Culture is not something set in stone or even all that tangible. It changes depending on who is doing the defining and who (or what) is being defined. The phrase "loss of culture" is simply hollow. How would you define "Australian culture" in the first place?

[Paluch]

I wasn't aware that Australia required people to agree with it wholeheartedly and "act Australian" in order to live there. God forbid people be able to speak in any manner other than politically correct (ooh, that'll upset the conservatives here). You act as though "culture" is something static or able to be defined in narrow terms. I hate to break it to you, but you can't do such a thing. The Aborigines have their own culture as do boys educated in Catholic schools (you, for instance). Culture is not something set in stone or even all that tangible. It changes depending on who is doing the defining and who (or what) is being defined. The phrase "loss of culture" is simply hollow. How would you define "Australian culture" in the first place?


Your missing the point here.

The Muslims have no reason to hate the Australian culture. If they immigrated there, created their community and continued their culture and minded their own business thats another story. Instead they choose to hate the Australian culture because it probably doesnt agree with something in the Qu'ran. I believe the Australian gov't, community, culture (whoever) did not restrict their culture. They did what people of the same culture would do, assimilate together and continue their culture the best they could. People who come from other cultures have been doing this for years, its natural. For example, many of the Italians who immigrated from italy to Canada, either moved to Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver. They continued their culture in those areas and did not make rallies and ish to hate the canadian culture. They minded their own business, instead of wasting time trying to hate the canadian culture (because i'm sure many did not like the culture), they tried to make their culture grow the best they could.


*Some* muslims are to ignorant to understand that the Qu'ran isn't the "FULL truth" the reason they might hate the australian culture is because they are to worried about not getting to paradise, than trying to live their current life.

What the Australian gov't/citizens don't want is hate. I mean who really wants hate? If they have been peaceful all these years and now a community comes along and starts to hate your culture, you wouldnt want them around either. Hate leads to other problems which the australian gov't is trying to avoid.

I didnt read the whole article, just the summerization from the person who posted this thread. So i might be slightly miss informed, although i feel i've done a good job expressing to the situation.

[FloppyDisk]

Instead they choose to hate the Australian culture because it probably doesnt agree with something in the Qu'ran.

So? I don't want to deport Jerry Falwell, although he is an asshole. He has every right to decry modern American culture to his heart's content. He has the right to believe whatever the fuck he feels like.

Welcome to an open society, you have to deal with shit like this. If you really want to do something about it, petition your MP to pass some hate speech law (even though I think those are retarded, GG Canada) and include national orgin and ethnicity as protected classes(again GG).

[Degree:N]

people who believe Osama Bin Laden to be a hero or freedom fighter
Yes, these types should be charged under Terrorism laws, it does not do any country good to let this kind issue percolate without swift action.

[FaKToR]

Yes, these types should be charged under Terrorism laws, it does not do any country good to let this kind issue percolate without swift action.
How would that not be stifling free speech? If there is no material threat then you're merely getting rid of the ideas which you disagree with.

Btw Blindsite, what defines Australian culture? Does it include non-indigenous Australians?

[Degree:N]

How would that not be stifling free speech? If there is no material threat then you're merely getting rid of the ideas which you disagree with.This is Aus, not USA, there be no free speech there. I think some guy in Victoria got arrested for speaking out against Islam or something... Blindsite may know what I'm talking about.

[FaKToR]

This is Aus, not USA, there be no free speech there. I think some guy in Victoria got arrested for speaking out against Islam or something... Blindsite may know what I'm talking about.
Further entrenchment of free speech restrictions is not something to champion imo.

[Degree:N]

Further entrenchment of free speech restrictions is not something to champion imo.
What is confessing to a crime? If there was an unsolved crime committed and I (and no-one else) did not have evidence to prove I didn't do it but I confessed to it, would I be arrested and put on trial? Or would the police say its only free speech and ignore me?

/devils advocate

[Paluch]

So? I don't want to deport Jerry Falwell, although he is an asshole. He has every right to decry modern American culture to his heart's content. He has the right to believe whatever the fuck he feels like.

Welcome to an open society, you have to deal with shit like this. If you really want to do something about it, petition your MP to pass some hate speech law (even though I think those are retarded, GG Canada) and include national orgin and ethnicity as protected classes(again GG).


I didn't say that the muslims can't hate the culture. They have free will, as do all of us, they can choose to do what they want. I said that it isn't right. The muslims were given rules by the authority (Australian gov't). They choose not to follow these rules (maybe because they think they are injust?), again thats fine they have free will. Although the rules are made to keep order and efficiency, if a large group of people find these rules unjust, they will start to rebel. When they start to rebel there will be chaos. The Australian govt does not want chaos.

How does the Australian govt deal with this? The muslims have been taught certain things, the australians have been taught other things. The Australians can accept the muslim culture, but I dont think they would do that now, after the fine image they have given themselves (the muslims). Obviously the muslims wont accept the Australian culture (and/or laws). So for those who do no follow the rules, what is the authority to do? The authority is trying to avoid chaos, the rebeling group will bring chaos. A simple example would be, a disruptive player in a server. The disruptive player isnt following the rules of the server, they admin (authority) enforces the rules, by either llamaing the player, or making them stuck so that they cant play. IF they still dont follow the rules, they will either kick or ban them for a certain period of time.

The situation in Australia isnt to diffrent. There will be people who dont like the rules (thats fine they can speak out, they have free will), but if they start to cause chaos and disrupt peoples way of life, then something needs to be done. This is exactly what the Australian govt is doing. Except they are trying to prevent the chaos that could occur.

[Moe_Rahn]

What is confessing to a crime? If there was an unsolved crime committed and I (and no-one else) did not have evidence to prove I didn't do it but I confessed to it, would I be arrested and put on trial? Or would the police say its only free speech and ignore me?

/devils advocate
They'd almost certainly investigate you at least a wee bit.

[GoatChomper]

The problem looks similar to one we have in the Southwest concerning some Latin American immigrants, namely those who as mentioned above go about forming themselves a ghetto (italicized for its original meaning, not the contemporary one prevalent in the US) to prevent assimilation.

It's a futile effort. The joke's on them, sociologic history shows that their progeny will indeed assimilate despite the elders' wishes. If their trends operate in a similar fashion as do those of our own Latin American immigrants, their grandchildren might understand some basic Arabic but will be functionally English-speaking monolinguals.

My team at work is a prime example of that.....twelve other people, nine of them Hispanic, and only three of them speak Spanish. Shared experiences means that any one of them has far more in common with an Ohio Valley redneck than with their first cousins living across the border.

[BlindSite]

Paluch, you were dead on.

Degree:N, that is correct we have no Bill of Rights that we can simply quote, we have acts that hand down certain aspects of our law and our rights. I agree, they should have freedom of speech and they should be free to simply get on a soapbox in a crowded steet and scream "I LIKE BEING SEGREGATED" I do not care about that.

The problem I have is people who do not like Australian way of life and the culture (definitions matter in no way shape or form as of culture, despite common techniques of debating). I don't ask them to conform, I don't ask them to wear thongs or anything stereotypical all I ask is that they live and let live as we (normal Aussie's) allow them to do.

I don't mind muslims, their culture, religion or the stereotypical ethnic background, but it is becoming ever more prevalent that the followers of this religion, in these ghettos are harbouring anti australian views and are becoming more vocal in their support of terrorism.

On a final note, 100% fuck any body who dares to utter their support for terrorism or even tries to justify it in public or otherwise. THem being legally allowed to do so I find disgusting, especially the defence of doing so. The men who fought and died for us to have that right would be spinning in their graves hearing some people say its the right of these people to speak about how much they love terrorism or hate my way of life.

[FaKToR]

Although the rules are made to keep order and efficiency, if a large group of people find these rules unjust, they will start to rebel. When they start to rebel there will be chaos.
Are you saying the only political influence people have in Australia is rebelling? That things cannot change any other way?

On a final note, 100% fuck any body who dares to utter their support for terrorism or even tries to justify it in public or otherwise. THem being legally allowed to do so I find disgusting, especially the defence of doing so. The men who fought and died for us to have that right would be spinning in their graves hearing some people say its the right of these people to speak about how much they love terrorism or hate my way of life.
Why is that? You've been very passionate about it, but it sounds a lot like "because I say so" for your reasoning.

Crimes against our culture and our way of life...
Oh god where I have heard that before.

[Modest Genius]

It's a futile effort. The joke's on them, sociologic history shows that their progeny will indeed assimilate despite the elders' wishes. If their trends operate in a similar fashion as do those of our own Latin American immigrants, their grandchildren might understand some basic Arabic but will be functionally English-speaking monolinguals.aye, same thing happens here with pakinstani and indian immigrants. as soon as their kids go to school, the ghetto falls apart. i know a few second generation immigrants, theyre as much a part of english society as the rest of us, despite their parents

[Prowl]

What you seem to be stuck on is this issue of a static culture. Are we not forgetting that times change?

In the past England was a pagan nation, then catholic now protestant, there were pogroms first against the pagans, then the catholics. Lets look at the mistakes of the past and try not to emulate them?

Australia as our case study shares a similar issue. The treatment of the native people by the white immigrants was and still is appalling, there was no respect for their claim to the land, and I don't see you following their culture, so why should anyone else be forced to assimilate yours?

What I find scary is that Islam and Christianity and so close in belief, but you still find it difficult to empathise with muslims. A strict christian would be decrying the decadent western culture such as you have in Oz (and much of the west)

[GoatChomper]

We heard exactly these sentiments in the 1850s about the Irish (NINA, anyone?), in the 1890s about Slavs, in the 1910s about Italians and Sicilians, and in the Thirties about Orientals.

They were wrong, each time. Didn't happen then, ain't gonna happen now. It's no big secret that separatism appeals to the middle-aged while their children usually reject it.

[Degree:N]

The treatment of the native people by the white immigrants ... still is appalling
Link to proof of this?

there was no respect for their claim to the land
I think land has been given back a number of times, see "Mabo".
and I don't see you following their cultureLast week my friend's Kindergarten class painted Aboriginal style paintings and stuck them up on the wall, I think it was for an open day or something.

A strict christian would be decrying the decadent western culture such as you have in Oz (and much of the west)They are. Maybe you don't notice because of your location, and because newsletters submitted by Churches don't hit headlines like bombs and other methods of violence?

Prowl, I'm not against your line of thought, but if you could provide some clarification on the points I outlined that would be great :)

[lucid]

aye, same thing happens here with pakinstani and indian immigrants. as soon as their kids go to school, the ghetto falls apart. i know a few second generation immigrants, theyre as much a part of english society as the rest of us, despite their parents

But their kids tend not to look to white culture, but rather black culture, as sterotyped by Ali G.

[BlindSite]

Why is that? You've been very passionate about it, but it sounds a lot like "because I say so" for your reasoning.

The reason that I disagree with people supporting terrorism is because, removing all conservative bias and possible perceived hypocrisy in this statement it is killing innocent people. You might believe the government is evil, you might believe Iraq is a war for oil. That's all well and good, but don't take it out on innocent men, women and children (I know the hypocrisy you're going to try and point out with the hiroshima/nagasaki thing but I would ask you not to). Terrorists target the innocent, that we can all agree on is wrong, whether you do not support the government's policies on anything I am sure we can agree that Terrorism is not justified nor should it be supported especially protected by rights which were fought for by men who certainly would not agree with terrorists and their ideals.

What you seem to be stuck on is this issue of a static culture. Are we not forgetting that times change?

I do not believe or even feel that culture is static, what I do feel is that the culture of Australia right now is HATED by these people. The hatred of their culture is what I abhore, not the potential evolution of my society to become more of an ethnic mixed bag than it already is.


In the past England was a pagan nation, then catholic now protestant, there were pogroms first against the pagans, then the catholics. Lets look at the mistakes of the past and try not to emulate them?

I am not trying to emulate mistakes of the past, I am trying to stop people who HATE the nation that I live in and love for no bloody reason pervert the way of life we lead.


Australia as our case study shares a similar issue. The treatment of the native people by the white immigrants was and still is appalling, there was no respect for their claim to the land, and I don't see you following their culture, so why should anyone else be forced to assimilate yours?

Wrong, the treatment of Aboriginies, if you bothered to research is in no way today appalling, there's precedent cases of Mabo and Wik that allow good for nothing aboriginals to walk up to the homes of White/Asian/insert ethnic background here, hard working farmers and claim the land. If they prove it, they get it with little compensation to the farmers or land owners who now do not have a home, land or property but also need to find new employment. AS you may not know farming does not have great occupational mobility.

Their culture, who's using the paralell of static culture. IF they wanted to keep Australia in such a way, they should've fought harder or done what the NZ natives did and signed bloody treaties and agreements, not whined a few hundred years later.

Again, I am not talking about the assimilation, which many of you think I am, I am talking about respecting a culture if you are coming to live here, respect it and let it be, changing as it may be. Do not talk about it in a hateful manner and see to destroy it or support those who do.


What I find scary is that Islam and Christianity and so close in belief, but you still find it difficult to empathise with muslims. A strict christian would be decrying the decadent western culture such as you have in Oz (and much of the west)

I am not a christian, I do not follow christian beliefs or Ideals, I am my own man and always will be. As such I do not have to empathise with anybody, I understand their plight coming to a strange land etc, but that is no excuse for hating a culture or a people when you choose to live amongst it/them.

aye, same thing happens here with pakinstani and indian immigrants. as soon as their kids go to school, the ghetto falls apart. i know a few second generation immigrants, theyre as much a part of english society as the rest of us, despite their parents

I hear this could be a similiar issue in england. Should these ghetto's remain together by schooling the children within, like it beginning to happen here, especially with guest speakers who preach the good of Terrorism, what action would you agree with?










Finally. I do not believe culture to be static.

I do not want these people to assimiliate or conform.

Is that clear now?

I want them to respect the changing australian culture and way of life whilst abiding by our laws. Preach your hate for any of the above and preach how good terrorism is or to see Australian dead, then you should be deported or punished.

[Modest Genius]

But their kids tend not to look to white culture, but rather black culture, as sterotyped by Ali G.nonsense. sure, they still support india/pakistan/bangladesh when it comes to cricket, but the rest of the time they follow a slightly different to normal English (or Scottish, or Welsh) culture, which is surely healthy

I hear this could be a similiar issue in england. Should these ghetto's remain together by schooling the children within, like it beginning to happen here, especially with guest speakers who preach the good of Terrorism, what action would you agree with?sure, that would be a problem, only 99.99% of second generation immigrants dont listen to preachers, but to popular culture. more are (for better or for worse) interested in Big Brother than what mulim preachers have to say. hence its not a problem.

[BlindSite]

Here it is beginng to be the opposite where they (being the aforementioned) are more interested in the propaganda they're being fed and less interested in popular culture.

[Violin]

I completly agree that a group of similar people that do not accept the law and culture should gtfo. Its what the USA should do. All racism should just be gone from our country. But.......How could you apply something like this to the USA, where the custom is widely diverse? Would this mean we would have to remove freedom of religion (or anything lile that)?