Why do people hate the USA?

[Violin]

I do not mean any harm, I am only curious as to why people hate the USA. I myself live in Wilder Kentucky, recently moved from Dayton Ohio and im a citizen of the USA.

I want differnt views from you guys on why people hate the Unites States. My curisoity was spaked when I saw an artical in my paper describing kids in the public schools expressing their hatred towards the USA. The were prepared to burn the flag that hangs infront of their school building as well.

People in USA, express their hate for USA. WHY? If they hate it so much WHY dont they leave?

Terrorist hate us, WHY? Ive heard many reasons, but none of them were really well thought out. And i know some of you here can give well thought out opinions on why.

I mean, hasnt the USA always been looking out for other people? And trying to do what is right? Some people even go lengths on what "Doing whats right" means. What i think it means is saving peoples lives. And protecting those who are being stomped upon. And protecting our nation from Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Please dont go offtopic, and no insults pointed to anyone here. Thank you.

(Burning the USA flag IS ILLIGAL right?)

[Moe_Rahn]

(Burning the USA flag IS ILLIGAL right?)
Not as far as I can tell. You'll more than likely get the shit stomped out of you by the police and/or enraged citizenry for it, yes, but the Supreme Court has quite regularly struck down laws regarding the illegality of flag-burning, with the last such instance being in 1990, U.S. v. Eichman, when the Flag Protection Act was annulled.

Unless they snuck something in under my radar in the last couple months; I've been busy, and haven't always been up on the news.

[Grunt]

People hate the US the same reason kids hate the guy who gets a benz for his birthday and complains that its the wrong color.

[GoatChomper]

Eichman dealt specifically with the national symbol, but left standing state laws on the desecration of a venerated object.

[solidsnake]

People hate us because we think we can police the world but we cant. And yes flag burning is legal.

[Moe_Rahn]

Eichman dealt specifically with the national symbol, but left standing state laws on the desecration of a venerated object.
Ah, okay, thanks. I only skimmed most of what I found, so I knew that it definitely wasn't a federal law. Offhand, do you know how severely any of those states that have laws on the books regarding flag desecration will punish an offender? I can't find much on that yet, unfortunately.

[BlindSite]

They accept the moronic leftwing notions of coruption from morons like michael moore instead of making up their own goddamn mind about issues.

[Moe_Rahn]

They accept the moronic leftwing notions of coruption from morons like michael moore instead of making up their own goddamn mind about issues.
And what if they were to make up their own goddamn mind regarding any "moronic leftwing notions"?

For all I know, you could just be accepting moronic right-wing notions, instead of making up your own goddamn mind.

Even if someone agrees with the guy you don't like on a few points, that doesn't mean they hate America.

[BlindSite]

Then I don't have a problem, generally the former, as I mentioned can simply be defeated in a debate.

No, I research and I argue and I debate and then research some more. I've never followed unquestioningly and I never dissent without the same research.

I was using it as a for instance. Its all too pop culture and popular nowadays for people to be with the fuck america or i hate bush bandwagon these days for me to take almost everyone seriously. These forums though are slightly differnt, people who do not see eye to eye with me ideologically atleast have some form of research backing up their notions no matter how nonsensical.

[Moe_Rahn]

Then I don't have a problem, generally the former, as I mentioned can simply be defeated in a debate.

No, I research and I argue and I debate and then research some more. I've never followed unquestioningly and I never dissent without the same research.

I was using it as a for instance. Its all too pop culture and popular nowadays for people to be with the fuck america or i hate bush bandwagon these days for me to take almost everyone seriously. These forums though are slightly differnt, people who do not see eye to eye with me ideologically atleast have some form of research backing up their notions no matter how nonsensical.
This is always a lot more fun when we're calm and rational and take our time with it. I'm not exactly the biggest fan of Bush or some of his policies, but at the very least I have my personal reasons for my disagreements, instead of "O MAN BUCK FUSH AMIRITE?!"

There's always been a generous serving of fools on both sides. I just try not to let them bother me.

[ScAvenger001]

They accept the moronic leftwing notions of coruption from morons like michael moore instead of making up their own goddamn mind about issues.
People who accept leftwing notions are moronic morons? Let's try to avoid ad hominem attacks, even by proxy, mmmk?

[Kak]

They accept the moronic leftwing notions of coruption from morons like michael moore instead of making up their own goddamn mind about issues.
I'm medium-left and I think Moore is kind of a dumbo. And I love my country.

[Moe_Rahn]

People who accept leftwing notions are moronic morons? Let's try to avoid ad hominem attacks, even by proxy, mmmk?
To be fair, those who blindly accept anything they're told, regardless of side, are on my list of people to pay no mind to. He did kind of clarify later that that sort were the ones on his own shitlist.

[GoatChomper]

Offhand, do you know how severely any of those states that have laws on the books regarding flag desecration will punish an offender?
I can cite only the Texas Penal Code on this.....
§ 42.11. DESTRUCTION OF FLAG. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person intentionally or knowingly damages, defaces,
mutilates, or burns the flag of the United States or the State of
Texas.
(b) In this section, "flag" means an emblem, banner, or
other standard or a copy of an emblem, standard, or banner that is
an official or commonly recognized depiction of the flag of the
United States or of this state and is capable of being flown from a
staff of any character or size. The term does not include a
representation of a flag on a written or printed document, a
periodical, stationery, a painting or photograph, or an article of
clothing or jewelry.
(c) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the act that would otherwise constitute an offense is done in
conformity with statutes of the United States or of this state
relating to the proper disposal of damaged flags.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
Said classification of misdemeanor is punishable by a maximum of one year's confinement in a county jail and/or a maximum fine of $4,000.

[Moe_Rahn]

I can cite only the Texas Penal Code on this.....

Said classification of misdemeanor is punishable by a maximum of one year's confinement in a county jail and/or a maximum fine of $4,000.
Okay, thanks again. I know it may be a bit silly to quote a cartoon here, but knowing is half the battle.

Little off-topic, but do you have a copy of this stuff lying around, or is there somewhere online you go to look it up? Or are you just that hardcore as to know these things?

[pro kossu]

I want differnt views from you guys on why people hate the Unites States.

Saying that someone hates America is not accurate and undermines the real issue of criticisms of American policies.

List of policies and issues from wikipedia, take your pick:


* U.S. Foreign Policy
o American military interventions and perceived imperialism, especially in connection with 2003 invasion of Iraq and the Vietnam War
o Selectivism in resolving various global problems (global warming, disease, wars in Africa)
o Support for military dictatorships and totalitarian governments during and after the Cold War

* U.S. Domestic Policy
o American policies which diverge from other developed countries, including the health care, drug, and gun control policies
o American social problems, including high rates of imprisonment and homelessness
o The continued employment of capital punishment

* Human Rights issues
o Perceived American Exceptionalism regarding international institutions and international law (International Criminal Court) and post-911 anti-terrorism laws

* Economic issues
o Perceptions that the United States was the key inspiration for globalization and neoliberal free trade policy
o Criticisms of the ethical behavior of certain American corporations
o A lack of social welfare and income redistribution policies relative to other industrialized nations

* Criticisms of national character
o Claims of excessive nationalism or blind patriotism
o Claims of widespread ignorance and arrogance toward foreigners
o Stereotypes of obesity and fast food diets
o Criticisms of excessive religiosity and "Puritanism" or conversely, immorality and vulgarity.

* Other issues
o Cultural imperialism through spread of English language and American popular culture
o Perceived lack of attention to environmental issues
o Criticism of a lack of universal gay rights, or, conversely, excessive acceptance of alternative lifestyles

[Modest Genius]

http://krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa.html
This section attempts to answer the question: why is the USA so frequently the victim of resentment around the world?

The USA government blames hatred of democracy and envy at the American way of life for this resentment. Many people in the USA and a majority around the world look towards USA foreign policy for the answers. Much of this policy, its history and consequences is under-reported by the American media.

The American people are generally a friendly, kindly and compassionate people. If they knew one tenth of what their governments get up to around the world and in their dealings with foreign governments and people, there would be an enormous outcry. For this reason much is hidden or obscurred. Since the terrible events on 11 September 2001, many Americans have taken to the internet to find out more about the world beyond their borders.

read it, its very good, although obviously only reports the bad

[siddy]

http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showthread.php?t=999

The states act with only themselves in mind, it seems. This whole NAFTA issue pisses me right off. They've been told many times that their tarrifs are illegal, but refuse to levy it, where if any other country did that to them, they would have a fit.

Oh, and Blindsite honestly, leave your moron at the door. Even you should know that. There are stupid people on both sides of the spectrum, both left wingers and right wingers. You can't just pass a dislike for a nation based on lies and left wing propaganda; all it does is turn a blind eye to the actual problems that are there and causing this dislike.

[Kak]

http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showthread.php?t=999

The states act with only themselves in mind, it seems. This whole NAFTA issue pisses me right off. They've been told many times that their tarrifs are illegal, but refuse to levy it, where if any other country did that to them, they would have a fit.

Oh, and Blindsite honestly, leave your moron at the door. Even you should know that. There are stupid people on both sides of the spectrum, both left wingers and right wingers. You can't just pass a dislike for a nation based on lies and left wing propaganda; all it does is turn a blind eye to the actual problems that are there and causing this dislike.
Very nicely said.

[FaKToR]

I thought there was a more recent decision that allowed flag burning. My state has a law regarding and I think it's stupid. I'm most perplexed as to what the reasoning behind it is. I could understand a law that was centered around safety since you are burning something, but banning it because the message it communicates is disagreeable is very flimsy.

As for the question of "why do people hate america" that seems like a rather silly question, as least as it's phrased.

[Locke]

People hate the US the same reason kids hate the guy who gets a benz for his birthday and complains that its the wrong color.


Sounds like my school

[GoatChomper]

Little off-topic, but do you have a copy of this stuff lying around, or is there somewhere online you go to look it up? Or are you just that hardcore as to know these things?
All of the above. Between spending a lot of personal time on the RKBA fight and not a little professionally doing contract work, I always keep a current copy of the state Penal and Criminal Procedure codes handy.

[Shinobi]

goat I dont know if you remember this but we got into a argument on how much of an influence college professors have on students opinions,, now that I have many friends that have taken political science and one of my sister's teachers is now a sort of family friend.

From these experiences I kind of agree with you a bit more than I did 1-2 years ago,,,, not so much in that these professors are throwing the young students to the left,, but that these students seem to almost always mimic the opinions of their teacher without asking questions or forming their own opinions..... My sisters poli-sci teacher's entire curriculum is formed out of guardian articles and editorials.

I still dont agree that they are converting the majority to the left (I still think it's a regional thing) but that argument definately stuck with me.. it pretty much told me to take everything with a grain of salt

anywhoo, I didnt want to post a new article related to the argument,, this seemed like a somewhat appropriate place

and to stay on topic,, what pisses me off about the US besides foreign policy (I really dont know my stance on that, I'm constantly debating with myself) is the whole NAFTA free trade thing. That seems so blantantly illeagle and almost arrogant. I mean you guys threw the proposal on the table (and brian mulroney accepted it) yet when a court says the US is at fault and placing illegal tariffs on lumber etc..they blatantly say "tough luck".. It's this above the law attitude that gets me..

also while I think marc emery is a dick and a snake, I still feel this extradition
is a little bullshit. It seems to me that a major factor in marijuana legalization/decrimilization being held back because of the fear of the US retaliating..

So I guess I'm a little bit of a nationalist, but i know we're not perfect, or even that good. In fact a lot of people dont realise that candians pollute more per capita than US citizens... but either way that's my beef

sorry of the long winded unfocused post but that's my beef

[Supplanter]

Saying that someone hates America is not accurate and undermines the real issue of criticisms of American policies.

There are probably many people that truely to hate America one reason or another but many people just don't like some of the US's foreign policies.

I personally think of the US as Canada's big brother. We don't always get along, sometimes our governments do things that piss each side off but in the end we are close friends and allies.

[Shinobi]

fair enough, we are neighbors and have to coexist, but does the US have the right to impose it's will on us because we have a crappy army?

that's a whole other firebox thread

[Prowl]

I distrust the american government, not it's people as a whole. Basically everything that wikipedia article said forms the core of my beef, and that of the vast majority of brits I speak to.

The other issue is that of the perception of USA as the world's policeman. This wouldn't bother me at all if it didn't also take on the role of judge, jury and executioner too.

[lucky644]

People hate us because we think we can police the world but we cant..

That, and the american government lies to it's people, and tries to justify 'wars' through propaganda and bad information.

Personally I've had quite a few bad experiences with americans visiting Canada, a month ago this american family was at a Days Inn (that had JUST finished being renovated) and they decided to park their truck in their parking lot. Now, mind you, they were not even staying at the Days Inn. Anyhow, they proceeded to let both their huge dogs out which took shits on the newly created landscaping, and emptied a cooler of ice out on the lawn, and started throwing their trash out all over the place. (I'm serious, just tossed it out of their vehicle everywhere, when there was a trashcan just 100ft away.) I know the owner, and he's not an angry man, but when they started to leave without cleaning anything up, he just blew.

When he asked why he was tossing all his shit out on his property, he replied "well i didn't want it in my vehicle" And they had the balls to call us canadians 'unfriendly' when he drove off.

And just a couple days ago I was at a gas station, parked behind an american who was fueling up (blocking ALL the pumps, instead of being nice and pulling up to the last one to make room behind him) and I stepped out of my car and waited. When he finished, he just locked his vehicle, set the alarm and went inside. I couldn't believe what a prick he was, he must have been inside for 10 minutes before he came back out so I could fuel up. He could have at least pulled off to the side to let traffic continue to fuel up.

The main point here is it seems they have no respect for other people, property, or countries in general, even when they're visiting.

These are just a couple recent times mind you..

[TASTEE DUBBA C]

Stereotype = invalid, next!

[siddy]

Stereotype = invalid, next!

Anecdote /= Stereotype.

Why not try some arguments.

[lucky644]

Stereotype = invalid, next!

Yeah, except it wasn't, I posted two recent stories for examples.

[meifunk]

words/jerk-like Americans


I saw perfect examples of this almost daily when I was in the Bellingham area. Only it was Canadians doing the same sort of thing.

I would argue that it's not any specific group (exception: jerks) that are the problem here, it's just jerks. I don't know many people that would do something like you said, but frankly it wouldn't surprise me if I saw it.


To stay on-topic, part of the reason that people probably hate America is there are an awful lot of jerks here. No more or less than any other country probably, but there are a lot of jerks with a lot of money, and a lot of power. Being a jerk with a lot of money and a lot of power can lead to being real loud, and generally loud jerks.... Well no one likes them.

Oh yeah, there are a lot of foreign policy issues, as mentioned before. I'm not paid to make political stances, though.

[solidsnake]

That, and the american government lies to it's people, and tries to justify 'wars' through propaganda and bad information.....
i agree. And im ashamed to be an american right now.

[TASTEE DUBBA C]

Yeah, except it wasn't, I posted two recent stories for examples.

Of why you hate the USA when obviously not every single person is like that.

[lucky644]

Of why you hate the USA when obviously not every single person is like that.

I worked for a corporation, and delt with upwards of 1,000 americans a day, for almost 2 years.

You become jaded after the first 100,000 americans...

[theubc]

because they are all freedom haters.

[GoatChomper]

Man, do I have to repost the Red Oktober quote about politcians and lying everywhere on a monthly basis?
You become jaded after the first 100,000 americans...
Whereas it took me only a handful of forum-frequenting Canadians to become jaded.

Sure you want to go down that rathole here?

[lucky644]

Whereas it took me only a handful of forum-frequenting Canadians to become jaded.

I'd expect nothing less from you.

[Enders]

That, and the american government lies to it's people, and tries to justify 'wars' through propaganda and bad information.
that's my main beef with the US, along with their total ignorance towards certain global rules (Geneva Convention and others).
Also, the way they just pushed the UN aside when they wouldn't help really disgusted me, and that was the point I lost all respect for them. They basically told the world "Hey, we're doing it our way, don't like it? Fuck you."

"You're with us, or you're with the terrorists"
good one.

[ScAvenger001]

I'd expect nothing less from you.
It's a valid point. I'm willing to bet that if you'd spent all day on the phone with stupid canadians instead of stupid americans, you'd have a low opinion of the intelligence of your fellow citizens.

[lucky644]

It's a valid point. I'm willing to bet that if you'd spent all day on the phone with stupid canadians instead of stupid americans, you'd have a low opinion of the intelligence of your fellow citizens.

1 year with Canadians.

[siddy]

It's a valid point. I'm willing to bet that if you'd spent all day on the phone with stupid canadians instead of stupid americans, you'd have a low opinion of the intelligence of your fellow citizens.

but he didn't say stupid canadians on the phone. he said forum members, which have been more than decent on these forums.

[HarryB]

It's a valid point. I'm willing to bet that if you'd spent all day on the phone with stupid canadians instead of stupid americans, you'd have a low opinion of the intelligence of your fellow citizens.


Believe me, I do. I've come to the conclusion that the vaste majority of the people in my city are illiterate.

I don't have anything against most Americans, just their government. Though there was one thing that drove me insane when I went on my Orlando trip. Apparently, holding the door for someone is grounds for a death stare. Here, it's customary to hold the door for someone at most 7 or 8 steps back. They thank you, you reply in kind, you walk away. It's an automatic thing. Christ, my friends and I went down to Florida and were in for a culture shock. Automatically we'd hold the various doors for people, and everytime we'd get stares as if we were about to mug them. Florida, New York, North Carolina, didn't matter. We'd hold the door, and we'd get dirty looks.

Also, there's such bitterness and stress in so many people's voices, and apparently no one knows how to keep their opinions to themselves. We were in Baltimore for a bus cleaning and one of my friends (Dan) went to go find something to eat, while my other two friends (Dave and Joe) when to find a magazine to read, I went to the bathroom. When I get out, I see Dan in front of an A&W(BTW why the hell isn't there the Burger Family in Balitmore? But you have deep-fried cheese curds...) and he decides he doesn't want anything and walks away. But before he takes more than 3 steps, the Black chick working at the cash mutters "Fucking Honky"... Me and Dan decide to go find Dave and Joe, so we walk into the convience place at the bus stop. Dave and Joe are at the counter with an FHM and Dave puts it down in front of the clerk and turns to Joe to say something. The second the clerk sees the magazine, she flips it over and says "It's Sunday!"

We got that in every place we stopped, even in the tourist part of Orlando everyone was rude. We were at an I.H.O.P. and we were looking through the breakfast menu when the waitress comes up and asks for our orders. Mine was easy, Pigs N'Blankets and a large milk. Dan's was the Intercontinental Breakfast, but it came with a ton of options. So Dan gives his order like this:

"I'll have the Intercontinental Breakfast."
/looks up at her to see if she was writing it down. She was just staring at him.
"AND?"
"And, uh, toast(Interrupted)"
"AND?!"
"Orange... juice?"
"Finally, now you two."
Dave and Joe were terrorfied. While Dan was getting interrogated, they were scanning the menu for their meal's options for preperation.

We got that attitude from a lot of people without doing anything to warrent it. Fuck, just because I'm a tourist doesn't mean you have to be uncivil. Cruiseships come in to port all the time and tourists from New York are always up town doing what tourists do, but I've never felt like making them feel unwanted. I don't give them dirty looks, I don't put them off when they ask a question. Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that I talk to you people, I'd have a pretty piss poor opinion of Americans as well.

[GoatChomper]

that's my main beef with the US, along with their total ignorance towards certain global rules (Geneva Convention and others).
I don't know how many times I've had to say this.....the US generally abides by the Geneva Conventions (witness the fact that our troops carry GC cards), but it's not lawfully binding because our Congress refused to ratify it in toto the one and only time it was brought before it. Blame the Congress that was in session during Wilson's administration if you must, but let's be done with the silly claim that the US doesn't operate within the Conventions for once and for all, shall we?

[Stig]

that's my main beef with the US, along with their total ignorance towards certain global rules (Geneva Convention and others).
Yes, that's what this all really comes down to, right? Ignorance?

[M123]

Why do Americans hate the French? People seems to be mistaking disagreement with hate.

[Enders]

Yes, that's what this all really comes down to, right? Ignorance?
maybe
or it could be the US government just sees these rules as inferior to themselves, and they can go beyond them because they are the world's policeman

[[Political] Slayer]

Saying that someone hates America is not accurate and undermines the real issue of criticisms of American policies.

List of policies and issues from wikipedia, take your pick:

OK, so because we allow our citizens to be armed, we imprison our criminals and we don't waste our tax money on "free" healthcare, we are bad?

[siddy]

Slayer']OK, so because we allow our citizens to be armed, we imprison our criminals and we don't waste our tax money on "free" healthcare, we are bad?

did he say anything about gun control, the prison system, or healthcare?

we're talking about rules that you guys have made. NAFTA for an example. You guys don't bother following the rules of an organization you helped to create (UN is another).

[pro kossu]

Slayer']OK, so because we allow our citizens to be armed, we imprison our criminals and we don't waste our tax money on "free" healthcare, we are bad?

If you read the post carefully, you surely noted that the list I provided wasnt mine but copied from wikipedia.

[phatace51]

Not as far as I can tell. You'll more than likely get the shit stomped out of you by the police and/or enraged citizenry for it, yes, but the Supreme Court has quite regularly struck down laws regarding the illegality of flag-burning, with the last such instance being in 1990, U.S. v. Eichman, when the Flag Protection Act was annulled.

Unless they snuck something in under my radar in the last couple months; I've been busy, and haven't always been up on the news.

Flag burning is protected speech.

Check out the Supreme Court Case of Texas vs. Johnson.

[[Political] Slayer]

If you read the post carefully, you surely noted that the list I provided wasnt mine but copied from wikipedia.
I wasn't responding to your post, but rather the thing you quoted of reasons why america is hated.

And while we are on the flag burning topic, I think it is wrong, but the people have the right to do it. If people have the right to say racy things like ****er and faggot, then they can burn the flag, it all offends someone, but is protected speech.

[Chris R]

Believe me, I do. I've come to the conclusion that the vaste majority of the people in my city are illiterate.....
To be completely honest, I face the same thing with fellow Americans. It's not tourists, it's that some people in this country can be jackasses, plain and simple.

I held a door open for a girl last year, just to be nice, she must of been 20 steps off. She just walks right on through without even muttering a "Thank you". So yeah, you run into them either way.

[GusButts]

If you put politics aside, the USA is a cool country. I seriously think of moving there one day, close the the canadian border or at least on the east side, not to be raped by the godawful weather. Pretty much all of my hobbies can be done in the United States.

[Scraps]

-']If you put politics aside, the USA is a cool country. I seriously think of moving there one day, close the the canadian border or at least on the east side, not to be raped by the godawful weather. Pretty much all of my hobbies can be done in the United States.
Legaly?

[Col.Kurtz]

people dilslike the united states, because we can put our nose in other nations buisness, if we deam needed so, they dont like how rich we are, they dont like that we do have bragging rights as the worlds ass kickers.- but hey we earned it, unlike some countrys.


the fact we have the best military in the world could have somthing to do with it too

as far as for holding doors goes, when your in an area deamed "hill billy land" people are much more nice and considerate to others, most people from other countries go to like new york, or san fransisco, how many do you think go ohio or indiana, him? not many i would bet.

[GusButts]

Legaly?

Of course, that's why I want to move in a state that will let me do 'em. :P

[Enders]

people dilslike the united states, because we can put our nose in other nations buisness, if we deam needed so, they dont like how rich we are, they dont like that we do have bragging rights as the worlds ass kickers.- but hey we earned it, unlike some countrys.


the fact we have the best military in the world could have somthing to do with it too

as far as for holding doors goes, when your in an area deamed "hill billy land" people are much more nice and considerate to others, most people from other countries go to like new york, or san fransisco, how many do you think go ohio or indiana, him? not many i would bet.
oh, so because you have the world's best military, you can get into other countrie's buisness, and shake up whatever eh?

There's another entity similar to this. We refer to it as a bully. One who uses his strength against others in the area to get their way or to intimidate others.

It really doesn't matter how many wars you have fought, or how many countries you've 'intervened' in, you're still a country like the rest of us, and you have to stick to the rules and stay away from other countries unless you have a damned good reason, like the rest of us.
I'm sure if China decided to invade Taiwan or some other place the US would have a field day with the 'unlawful invasion' crap

[GoatChomper]

we're talking about rules that you guys have made. NAFTA for an example.
"We" don't make the rules.....few legislative proposals are put to a plebiscite on a state level, and none on a national one.

[Kak]

I'm an American. All the stuff you Canadians said Americans don't do, I see done every day. I hold doors open for people all the time, and they give a warm smile and say thankyou.

I love all countries, and don't have anything against any country or it's citizens. I do think it is unfortunate that so many Canadians look down on us so much though. I read an article somewhere that a lot of Canadians have the same view of America as people in Syria.

I appologize for my fellow citizens for giving you a bad impression Lucky, but I can assure you that the citizens of our contries don't have some big difference that makes one countries citizens smarter and more polite than the others. It's not fair to assume something of someone just because they are American.

And a lot of countries hate America because they hate our government. But they don't realise that 50% of the American population hate our government too.

[siddy]

"We" don't make the rules.....few legislative proposals are put to a plebiscite on a state level, and none on a national one.

I do believe NAFTA was spearheaded by the american government. but still, if you expect Canada to abide by the rules of our treaty, America should as well.

[GoatChomper]

Again, you equate "American government" with "us".

[Modest Genius]

hence why lots of people have been saying that americans are generally fine but american governments arent? eh?

oh and as a further point, just because you CAN do something doesnt mean that its right for you to do it

[Stig]

At the same time just because you can't do something and someone else can, it doesn't make that something not right.

[Violin]

America isnt a bully at all. We do not intimidate others for selflish reasons, or to simply amuse ourselves. I feel confident that we do it to to help the outher countries as well.

If we were bullies we wouldnt give a damn about HELPING anyone. Or anything. If we didnt intervene at all in situations, then who would? NO ONE thats who. And things would be much worse off. But this is only my opinion, and nothing more.

I feel that no other nation would intervene because they are too afraid, or simply do not care. Even if they could intervene, i doubt they could do a decent job.

I feel that America some generations ago has earned its spot, but now, i do not know. We need to earn it again, or maybe we dont.

Now from what ive gathered from all of you, the reasons why it seems people dislike the USA, is because People are jealous of us. If someone isnt living in the United States, they generally have a bad opinion of it. Its what you people seem to be giving off to me.

[Modest Genius]

America isnt a bully at all. We do not intimidate others for selflish reasons, or to simply amuse ourselves. I feel confident that we do it to to help the outher countries as well.ever looked into these things called the IMF and World Bank? successive US governments have systematically used these institutions to ensure that other countries are helped only so far as to generate a net benefit for the US

read the krysstal link.

[Kak]

people dilslike the united states, because we can put our nose in other nations buisness, if we deam needed so, they dont like how rich we are, they dont like that we do have bragging rights as the worlds ass kickers.- but hey we earned it, unlike some countrys.


the fact we have the best military in the world could have somthing to do with it too

as far as for holding doors goes, when your in an area deamed "hill billy land" people are much more nice and considerate to others, most people from other countries go to like new york, or san fransisco, how many do you think go ohio or indiana, him? not many i would bet.

Hrm I wonder what political party you share your opinions with.

Sounds just like Bush: "They hate our freedom!"

In the case of people living in the Arabian Peninsula, I think it's more of a case of us having troops stationed in the country containing the holiest sites in their religion. The fact that we support Israel, a country they feel was illegally placed in Muslim teritory, and a country that has killed thousands of Palastinians, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians, and currently occupies Palastinian teritory with settelers and troops. The fact that we invaded the soverign country of Iraq for reasons that have now been proven to be false. Because of the stuff we do in places like Abu Grhaib, and Guantanamo Bay.

Why do I think those are the reasons? Because those are the reasons they give. I know there is much more to each of those facts I cited, but that is the way a lot of people see it. I think it's kind of ignorant to say that they are just jealous of us.

Unfortunately the countless good things America does every second of every day, goes unnoticed by many who instead choose to focus on the bad.

[Violin]

ever looked into these things called the IMF and World Bank? successive US governments have systematically used these institutions to ensure that other countries are helped only so far as to generate a net benefit for the US

read the krysstal link.

And other countries do it more, and do worse things than that. If the US helped people and we didnt care about ourselves, other nations would abuse us.

[Degree:N]

Now from what ive gathered from all of you, the reasons why it seems people dislike the USA, is because People are jealous of us. If someone isnt living in the United States, they generally have a bad opinion of it. Its what you people seem to be giving off to me.

Are you talking about 3rd world countries? Because otherwise:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html
UN Human Development Index

"Most Livable" Countries 2004

1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United States

I strongly doubt people are jealous of the United States of Amerca, and it would be egotistical (as a country, not you specifically) to think they are.

(Non-serious) Aside:
Speaking of ego, was it really necessary to tack on "The United States" to the countries' name? I can think of other countries with united states/provinces/counties that don't have that written in the name, and only one that did (USSR) and two that still do (UAE, UK). What about "The United Provinces of Canada", "The United States of Australia" or "The United Villages of New Zealand"?

Unfortunately the countless good things America does every second of every day, goes unnoticed by many who instead choose to focus on the bad.Definately, not just USA though.

[TASTEE DUBBA C]

(Non-serious) Aside:
Speaking of ego, was it really necessary to tack on "The United States" to the countries' name? I can think of other countries with united states/provinces/counties that don't have that written in the name, and only one that did (USSR) and two that still do (UAE, UK). What about "The United Provinces of Canada", "The United States of Australia" or "The United Villages of New Zealand"?

Definately, not just USA though.

It emphasizes that America began as a bunch of independent states that were united to form a country.

[Agent Law]

The original thirteen were all British colonies, so I don't understand how they were independent.

[GoatChomper]

ever looked into these things called the IMF and World Bank? successive US governments have systematically used these institutions to ensure that other countries are helped only so far as to generate a net benefit for the US
It's called doing well while doing good. Call me strange, but I'm not eager to bankrupt myself for another's benefit.

[Degree:N]

It emphasizes that America began as a bunch of independent states that were united to form a country.
Yes, that's why Australia should be called The United States of Australia etc.

But to get back on topic, does anyone have an update on the Iraqi Gov'ts decisions regarding US troops in Iraq?

[EdgarAllenPoe]

If I weren't an American, and I am, I would hate America (and I do) for this quotation:

"Right now, it's almost like living in a third world country."

Said in regards to the hurricane Katrina disaster, which is pretty nasty, admittedly; but the quote just goes to show the absolute pretentiousness with which Americans live their lives: as though they somehow DESERVE to live better than people in a third world country.

That alone, ignoring all the other polisocial bullshit, would itself cause me to hate America with a burning, fiery passion. I could go on and on and on about all sorts of other reasons to hate the US (and, really, it would take a VERY long time), but it can really get to be that simple.

[Modest Genius]

And other countries do it more, and do worse things than that. If the US helped people and we didnt care about ourselves, other nations would abuse us.sure. but they generally dont pretend theyre doing good, and are generally condemned. thats whats happening here. oh and the US has a veto in the IMF and world bank. oh and wrote the rules for them too.
It's called doing well while doing good. Call me strange, but I'm not eager to bankrupt myself for another's benefit.fair enough, although that doesnt justify bankrupting someone else then telling them its for their own good
Speaking of ego, was it really necessary to tack on "The United States" to the countries' name? I can think of other countries with united states/provinces/counties that don't have that written in the name, and only one that did (USSR) and two that still do (UAE, UK). What about "The United Provinces of Canada", "The United States of Australia" or "The United Villages of New Zealand"?well, its historical, and reflects the federal system of govenment. mind you, thats not true of the UK.

oh and most of the time we are referred to as Britain or (wrongly) England, some of the time as UK, and virtually none of the time by the technically correct 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' which partially explains where the name came from. misses out Wales, Scotland and England though.

[lucky644]

people dilslike the united states, because we can put our nose in other nations buisness, if we deam needed so, they dont like how rich we are, they dont like that we do have bragging rights as the worlds ass kickers.- but hey we earned it, unlike some countrys.


the fact we have the best military in the world could have somthing to do with it too

You sound really really really full of yourself (your country?) in this post.

And just curious, what makes your military the best in the world?

[GrosPoisson]

"Right now, it's almost like living in a third world country."

Said in regards to the hurricane Katrina disaster, which is pretty nasty, admittedly; but the quote just goes to show the absolute pretentiousness with which Americans live their lives: as though they somehow DESERVE to live better than people in a third world country.

Things like that are why I believe that the only thing that can save America from itself are the (legal!) immigrants, who know what real hardship is like and will work tirelessly to keep themselves from experiencing it once more.

[GoatChomper]

If I weren't an American, and I am, I would hate America (and I do) for this quotation.....
So you'd hate an entire nation for speaking his mind which, if you'd ever spent any time in some of the worst of the Third World, you'd see was an accurate assessment.
fair enough, although that doesnt justify bankrupting someone else then telling them its for their own good
And of course, it's always IMF and World Bank policy that does it and never their own actions and lack of a marketable commodity. Gotcha.

[Modest Genius]

And of course, it's always IMF and World Bank policy that does it and never their own actions and lack of a marketable commodity. Gotcha.im pretty sure I never said that...

the fact is implementing IMF/WB conditions has wrecked plenty of countries, whilst others which have refused them have done much better. of course there are counterexamples on both sides, but thats the general trend

[siddy]

im pretty sure I never said that...

the fact is implementing IMF/WB conditions has wrecked plenty of countries, whilst others which have refused them have done much better. of course there are counterexamples on both sides, but thats the general trend

very true. think of the great super power that is Ghana.

[Blutschnetzler]

People hate the USA because of:

- ignorance and arrogance (Kioto, oh let's just INCREASE the pollution of the world because WE say so, instead of DECREASING it like the rest of the world!!!)

- abusing power, foreign policy(world police) "let's fight whoever WE want, we don't care about the NATO'S or UNO'S opinion!"

- they think they are better than other countries. That their opinion is RIGHT, that hey can do what they want because they are the no1 country.(exaggerated nationalism) They concentrate on themselves. Just look at the education. They have "AMERICAN History" NOT World history or sth. Then all this oh we are so proud to be american let's sing the national anthem 20 times a day!

-the US' society is so superficial, i.e. banning ANY kind of porn(nipplegate) but on the other hand brutality, weapons and so on are ok

So in General it's because they have the greatest power AND they abuse it, instead of working together with other countries as just a part of the world.

It's NOT envy for richness or freedom.

[Moe_Rahn]

They have "AMERICAN History" NOT World history or sth.
Okay, I can at least understand where you're coming from with the rest of your grievances, but this one is fucking bullshit. Any school worth two shits teaches both American and World History courses. Yeah, we don't have world history courses; that explains why I took a mandatory one in 10th grade.

Are you going to think Finland or England or Spain are arrogant because they teach Finnish or English or Spanish history?

Then all this oh we are so proud to be american let's sing the national anthem 20 times a day!
Yeah, I don't recall that happening at all either. The last time I was at an event where the national anthem was even played was over a month ago. And if you're referring to playing it before sporting events and the like, well, we aren't exactly the only country that does that, either. Unless all those hockey games I watched where they played "O Canada" over the PA were faked. Twenty times a day, though? Now you're just being silly.


And this is slightly off-topic, but I never understood the pointless suffixing of "-gate" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix) to scandals. The reason that Watergate was called Watergate was because Watergate was the name of the hotel. If the DNC was headquartered in a Holiday Inn instead, would we have been talking about NippleInn after the Super Bowl?

[Blutschnetzler]

You DO realize that overstatement is a stylistic device?

[Moe_Rahn]

You DO realize that overstatement is a stylistic device?
It's helpful to at least make a slight note when you're being stupid for the sake of stupid, because sometimes it's hard to tell that apart from the people who are just normally stupid.

[solidsnake]

You sound really really really full of yourself (your country?) in this post.

And just curious, what makes your military the best in the world?

Its because we spend most of our tax dollars on the military and not on schooling like we should.

[EdgarAllenPoe]

So you'd hate an entire nation for speaking his mind which, if you'd ever spent any time in some of the worst of the Third World, you'd see was an accurate assessment.

So? Why should Americans live any better than the citizens of a third world nation?

The accuracy of the statement isn't in question, the inquiry I'm making is: what gives Americans the idea that they have some kind of undeniable right NOT to live like this?

[Modest Genius]

Are you going to think Finland or England or Spain are arrogant because they teach Finnish or English or Spanish history?interestingly, we arent taught english history. and even if we were, it would be BRITISH history anyway. from age 5 to 16, we get taught world history, of which british history makes up about 10% of the entire syllabus

ask most brits educated in the last 2 or 3 decades about the hundred years war, or alfred the great, or even the british empire, and theyll know nothing about it, because it isnt taught. we learn about the french revolution, cold war, egyptians, romans etc instead

[Mystrick]

So? Why should Americans live any better than the citizens of a third world nation?

The accuracy of the statement isn't in question, the inquiry I'm making is: what gives Americans the idea that they have some kind of undeniable right NOT to live like this?

Because we earned our money through history. Sure it's like a case where a rich grandfather (USA) gives all their money to the kids (American people) and the kids mooch off of it and do nothing, but we still earned it.

MG - Why don't you learn about your history in schools?

Stereotype = invalid, next!

Note: How do you think sterotypes got started in the first place?

[Agent Law]

Because we earned our money through history. Sure it's like a case where a rich grandfather (USA) gives all their money to the kids (American people) and the kids mooch off of it and do nothing, but we still earned it.
Wouldn't that be inheritance rather than earning?

[Moe_Rahn]

interestingly, we arent taught english history. and even if we were, it would be BRITISH history anyway.
Semantics. You know exactly what I meant; the history of whatever country said class is being taught in.

[Mystrick]

Wouldn't that be inheritance rather than earning?

You are right sir.

[EdgarAllenPoe]

Because we earned our money through history. Sure it's like a case where a rich grandfather (USA) gives all their money to the kids (American people) and the kids mooch off of it and do nothing, but we still earned it.

Oh, oh, no, do not go there with me.

The US has "earned" its money primarily by raping and raping and raping every other continent in the world (save Antarctica, but it's only a matter of time).

We've had slave and cheap labor of every kind throughout the entire country's history. Starting back with African slavery up until the 1860s and continuing from there with sharecropping and other "more legitimate" forms of slavery - to incapacitating the poor for the use of the rich. Not to mention the outrageously low wages the Africans who did make it up north "got" to work for. Then, of course, we also have the Chinese laying down tracks left and right and working for a barely-living pittance with half-starving families. Because that's totally legitimate.

I assume you think the exceedingly low wages paid to women, Irishmen, Italians, etc during the earlier portion of the 20th century were just as amazing, right? And the conditions that caused the Triangle Shirtwaist fire must've made perfect sense!

Thankfully, we've now moved on to India and Mexico. And Malaysia. We can't forget Brazil, either. Oh, wait, yes we can because no one likes to talk about it.

America has made its living by corrupting morality to the core for the cold, heartless effort of capitalism at the open expense of other people. Remember how Hawaii was "annexed?" You can call bullshit on every major move America has made because it never does anything that doesn't gain it immediate and long term profit. That wonderful, heroic story we're taught of World War II and how America saved the world is borderline bullshit, itself, if you look at the causal nature of our involvement.

But, if you consider shamelessly riding on the back of every race and creed we possibly could without consideration for their rights as living human beings to be "earning" our place in the world, then I guess you're completely right.

I, on the other hand, do not consider abuse after heart wrenching abuse to be "earning" by any means.

Of course, maybe that's just another reason the world hates the USA...

[ripper]

Why do people hate the USA?

because Bush hate's black people :D http://buttlands.net/kanye.avi

[Mystrick]

Oh, oh, no, do not go there with me.
Ah yes.. touché good sir.. touché..

[TASTEE DUBBA C]

Oh, oh, no, do not go there with me.
Yea because only America has ever had slaves or cheap labor. You know how people say they hate America and its "ignorant" citizen? Well they hate ignorant people like you.

[GoatChomper]

People hate the USA because of:

- ignorance and arrogance (Kioto, oh let's just INCREASE the pollution of the world because WE say so, instead of DECREASING it like the rest of the world!!!)
Which even the Japanese refused to ratify.
- abusing power, foreign policy(world police) "let's fight whoever WE want, we don't care about the NATO'S or UNO'S opinion!"
Only a fool would stake national actions on some half-assed world opinion poll.
-the US' society is so superficial, i.e. banning ANY kind of porn(nipplegate).....
Porn is banned here? Think again, silly boy.
.....but on the other hand brutality, weapons and so on are ok
Yeah, right.....freedom to commit brutality is one of the Amendments.

Get a clue.
So? Why should Americans live any better than the citizens of a third world nation?

The accuracy of the statement isn't in question, the inquiry I'm making is: what gives Americans the idea that they have some kind of undeniable right NOT to live like this?
Feel free to show us where, other than your imagination, he stated he had a "right" to that.
The US has "earned" its money primarily by raping and raping and raping every other continent in the world.....
A steaming heap of race-baiting bullshit. Show us how "raped" Europe or Australia are.

[GrosPoisson]

So in General it's because they have the greatest power AND they abuse it, instead of working together with other countries as just a part of the world.

See, I would agree with that statement if Europe had given a rat's ass about things like Darfur and other bouts of ethnic violence going down in Africa that they could have tried to help prevent. Seems like France is the only one who even bothered to do anything, and even then in Cote d'Ivoire they caused a bit of a ruckus.

[EdgarAllenPoe]

Yea because only America has ever had slaves or cheap labor. You know how people say they hate America and its "ignorant" citizen? Well they hate ignorant people like you.

I'm not denying the fact that other countries have had cheap labor. But the United States has continual, non-stop exploitation to an extent which hasn't been practiced anywhere else.

And other countries wherein these practices were kept are quite wealthy, at the moment, as well, holding a similar "place" in world economy.



As for Europe, the continent itself was not wholly raped - only the immigrants who traveled over the Atlantic to live here. Although I wouldn't hesitate to mention the United States' shaky relationship with Spain, notably after a certain uprising...

And yes, race plays a massive issue in the debate; psychologically speaking, it is easier to build distance between people you can't relate to. People who don't look like you are easier to abuse.

And the frank shock of the reporter in his observation, the fact that observation was in fact even MADE, inherently implicates a belief that it is somehow wrong, or shouldn't be happening as such. What bothers me is that it is said as something that shouldn't occur. Oh, no. Not in America! Not in our precious, wonderful America!

Well, hopefully Yeats' 'gyre' will kick in soon and none of it will matter, anyway...

[Modest Genius]

Semantics. You know exactly what I meant; the history of whatever country said class is being taught in.yes, but my point is still valid. we arent taught the history of our country, by whichever name you call itMG - Why don't you learn about your history in schools?no idea, probably something about empathising with other countries, seeing history in context, and understanding the globalised world. but id still prefer to see a mixture of the two

incidentally, europe wasnt raped because it was uniquely in a position to prevent itself from being, mostly because it was economically strong already

oh and before anyone says it, im aware that the british empire was the greatest example of this ever

[sulsa]

People think it's horrible that the United States is the sole 'super power' in the world.

Wait until it's China...

[EdgarAllenPoe]

China is on the rise like no one's business.

It's gonna happen.

[solidsnake]

China is on the rise like no one's business.

It's gonna happen.
China can fight a war and not worry about losses thanks to them having so many fucking people.

[marty]

I can see China and the EU becoming economic superpowers. I just don't see them trying to outgun the USA. I can only see China looking inward and making a regional military force to enforce a hegemony in east Asia.

Maybe there might be an arms race between China and Russia or even China and India.

[Afro Joe]

The USA, in my personal experience is filled with jerk-offs. However, the US is also filled with some of the best people in the world. All you have to do is take the good with the bad and remember that it's not different anywhere else in the world.

[GrosPoisson]

Maybe there might be an arms race between China and Russia or even China and India.

That would be the funniest shit ever. Growing economic superpower with plenty of money for military spending versus former superpower whose military has been in decline for the past two decades and former British colony with too many damn people and not much of a modern military.

I'm just waiting for the day when China finally stops being Communist. It's bound to happen, capitalism would fit the national character so much better.

[GoatChomper]

I'm not denying the fact that other countries have had cheap labor. But the United States has continual, non-stop exploitation to an extent which hasn't been practiced anywhere else.
More pure and unadulterated bullshit. Grab a copy of the August Smithsonian and read about the ongoing slave trade in Sudan.

[TERROR^SS]

Why do people hate nazi germany?

[Stig]

Why do people hate nazi germany?
Because they had death camps and actively annihilated various portions of their population. Also, they attacked and conquered a number of neighboring countries.
...
Why are you even bringing this up?

[Modest Genius]

yay, shrikes rule has been invoked...

[siddy]

Why do people hate nazi germany?

and he wonders why he was banned...

[TERROR]

-- The answer is No.

[Chris R]

My point was that if you "hate" nazi germany, because of the warcrimes they did. USA is not far behind, is doing it over a greater timespan, and is still going strong, give it time and they will top nazi-germany in warcrimes.

We try to avoid civie cassualties, we haven't take any babies and shoved them on bayonets and paraded them down the street, haven't gassed anyone, haven't decimated any races...

[Stig]

I'm going to say it again, the issue here is ignorance.

[EdgarAllenPoe]

More pure and unadulterated bullshit. Grab a copy of the August Smithsonian and read about the ongoing slave trade in Sudan.

So?

There are still slaves making chocolate for US companies in Africa, too.

Good fucking job.

[Evil Superstar]

yay, shrikes rule has been invoked...

you mean Godwin's law?

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[Luguberos]

I mean, hasnt the USA always been looking out for other people? And trying to do what is right? Some people even go lengths on what "Doing whats right" means. What i think it means is saving peoples lives. And protecting those who are being stomped upon. And protecting our nation from Weapons of Mass Destruction.

:D That's about how i felt a few years back, but then a library book caught my eye called Guerilla Wars in Central America by Saul Landau.

Anyhow, here's someting from my Noam Chomsky mp3:s

In the Middle-East, Eisenhower pointed out to his staff that "the problem is we have a campaigne of hatred against us, not by the governments, but by the people. Why?" Well, this is fourtyfive years ago, not after September 11th. The security council explained "In the eyes of the majority of Arabs, the United States appears to be opposed to the reasization of the goals of Arab nationalism. They believe that the United States is seeking to protect its interest in near-East oil by supporting the status quo, (that means corrupt an brutal governments) and opposing political or economic progress". And they point out that "that perception is difficult to counter since it's accurate. Our economic and cultural interests in the area have lead, not unnaturally, to close U.S. relations with elements in the Arab world whose primary interest lies in maintainance of relations with the West and the status quo in their countries. So that's the policy that we do follow and we should follow, and it will lead to a campaigne of hatred against us". Much as the Wallstreet Joural and others found after September 11th when they surveyed the opinions of the wealthy and the priveleged, who are closely linked with Western power and support its basic objectives. Well, it's easy to go on with this, and it's not hard to understand, but educated opinion preferres a different story, the one you've read over and over. It preferres ruminations about how they resent us because of our freedom and our love of democracy, or because of their cultural failings, which go back to the middle ages, or because they've been left behind by the form of globalization in which they happily participate, and so on. And we can, if we want, choose self-serving fairy-tales, but it's not particularly wise. Nor is it wise to pretend that we don't know the answer to Bush's question [why do they hate us]. We do; it's very hard to miss.

[[Rapid-Fire]]

us Brits 'some not all' just hate your moron of a president.

[Modest Genius]

you mean Godwin's law?no, shrikes rule. shrikes rule is a variant, devised by our very own shrike30, which says that the quality of a thread is inversely proportional to the time it will take for someone to mention hitler or the nazis

[StandingCow]

The USA, in my personal experience is filled with jerk-offs. However, the US is also filled with some of the best people in the world. All you have to do is take the good with the bad and remember that it's not different anywhere else in the world.

Exactly, You cant judge the people by the action of the government.

[Kuken]

-- Apparently some people prefer not to listen.

[Willy_D]

its exactly like the what someone said somewhere near the beggining of this thread, the benz business, but also a little more:

your president and his crazy views/usage of religion to explain his actions

i'm not sure why else... maybe competition :D

[[Political] Slayer]

No, you only dropped two nukes on two major citys, killing some millions of people, but thats not as bad as invading a neighbour country.............Yeah the USA does nothing wrong.............No, it's just us europeans and the rest of the world who is wrong.



Ps, don't ban me for this

millions? try about 150,000. Do some research before you babble bullshit.

[GoatChomper]

There are still slaves making chocolate for US companies in Africa, too.
Yeah, we went looking for slave labor to make chocolate and keep having to erect ever-higher fences to keep our minorities from escaping the awful conditions they endure here.

Try again with something substantive next time, after you take note of the fact that there's been no chattel slavery in this nation for 140 years now.....something that other portions of the world can't say with a straight face.

[GrosPoisson]

So?

There are still slaves making chocolate for US companies in Africa, too.

Good fucking job.

If you're referring to slaves in the economic sense, as in "They are completely dependent on said chocolate-making jobs that they can't do anything else," you're probably right.

But guess what? Welcome to something happening all over the world, from the nine year olds making soccer balls in Pakistan to the Chinese women making clothes in sweatshops. Try again.

[EdgarAllenPoe]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/717348.asp?cp1=1


Question: “How long have you been working on this plantation?”
Answer (translated): “For one year.”
Question: “How much have you been paid?”
Answer (translated): “Nothing.”


And it's strange how much your examples resemble something I also brought up, already. It does happen all over the world, given, but can you name a more active participant than the corporate consciousness of the United States?

[mastablasta]

Here is an interesting "article", or whatever it is, that i got in my mail today.

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/issues/graaf227.htm

Wheather you take is as sarcastic, cry for help or anything else it still is an interesting one. Made me feel sorry for some people living over the ocean (well at least for a few seconds...).

On the topic i saw a comment in one of forums of a guy saying that every disaster in US has good, calming effect on his nerves. He wrote he ment to go to a spa for 14 days to relax a bit, but after the hurricane disaster he says 4 days will be enough. some people are so cruel...

[mastablasta]

Slayer']millions? try about 150,000. Do some research before you babble bullshit.


a fact that makes all the things much better.

Especially for 150.000 people and their famillies because they know it was not millions who died, only them.

[Chris R]

a fact that makes all the things much better.

Especially for 150.000 people and their famillies because they know it was not millions who died, only them.
I'm sure that the families of the millions who possibly could have died in the ground invasion of Japan feel the exact same way.

Or the billions that might have died, given that without the dedonation of a bomb on a civilian population, the Soviets and the US might have been a bit more liberal in their use of such weapons.

[kreket]

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/issues/graaf227.htm



Hmm.. Maybe the US could benefit from the hours law recently set in France? In appropriate businesses (think industry plants and other stuff this law can be adapted to) workers cannot be hired for more than 8 hours a day.

Instantly took a deep cut away from the unemployment, even if it didn't remove it. (At least 40 000 new jobs, was it?)

[EdgarAllenPoe]

Europe is so much nicer to its employees...with an average work week of 30-35 hours, as opposed to the 40-60 in the US. It makes me want to be French. Because I really hate the feeling I get of being imprisoned when I'm at work...

[GrosPoisson]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/717348.asp?cp1=1


Question: “How long have you been working on this plantation?”
Answer (translated): “For one year.”
Question: “How much have you been paid?”
Answer (translated): “Nothing.”


And it's strange how much your examples resemble something I also brought up, already. It does happen all over the world, given, but can you name a more active participant than the corporate consciousness of the United States?

So let me get this straight, Nestle USA and various other chocolate producing companies based in the United States have chocolate plantations in the Ivory Coast, there is some form of slave labor being used in these plantations, therefore the United States supports slavery abroad?

Being (money-grubbing, soulless, whatever you want to call them) corporations, I'm pretty sure they didn't exactly vet the plantations for things like this. They probably just wanted to know how much they were producing, how often, for how much.

[GoatChomper]

Hmm.. Maybe the US could benefit from the hours law recently set in France? In appropriate businesses (think industry plants and other stuff this law can be adapted to) workers cannot be hired for more than 8 hours a day.
Which would suck out loud for people who don't mind working thirteen-hour shifts three days a week so they can devote the week's other four days to other things.

[kreket]

A lot of Europe has got unions, Edgar. Centralised wage bargaining do have it`s merits: not only can you go give the best answer to "you and who´s army?" - you get to have holidays, pensions, free medicare and such.

GC: I do not remember if it was 8 hour days or 40 hour weeks. If someone young is in such a dire need to work themselves dry three days a week, maybe they should set their career for something else than the types of labour this law rams? Night shift is also an option - much safer than how exhausted you are at the twelfth hour and I doubt it to be that much worse off when it comes to social life.

[GoatChomper]

GC: I do not remember if it was 8 hour days or 40 hour weeks. If someone young is in such a dire need to work themselves dry three days a week.....
It's not always a case of young people or dire straits. One of my old colleagues in the private-protections business got into doing it on weekends when he was already a fulltime Army NCO because he wanted some spare cash to buy himself a bass boat. After he'd been in it a while the boat idea dropped off the radar, and he stayed on simply for the fun. Being a very large Green Beret with emergency medical qualifications and a really twisted sense of humor, we were happy to have him as long as he felt like sticking around. After that he moved on to weekend moonlighting with the local ambulance service, a job he resumed after retirement and moving back here.

Before him I had another coworker who asked for and got a shift of 1800-0700 on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays at one of our sites. That left him with a fulltime schedule and four straight days off every week to do with as he pleased, as well as freeing up another body to use elsewhere.
.....maybe they should set their career for something else than the types of labour this law rams?
Nice theory, but landlords and other creditors tend not to be amenable to what you might maybe can give them years into the future.....immediate needs must be satisfied, especially for those with spouses and children to support.

[mastablasta]

I'm sure that the families of the millions who possibly could have died in the ground invasion of Japan feel the exact same way.

Or the billions that might have died, given that without the dedonation of a bomb on a civilian population, the Soviets and the US might have been a bit more liberal in their use of such weapons.


wow you just wrote: Attacks on civilians are ok, because invasion might kill more.

What i see written up there is: WTC terrorist attack was good, because an invasion would cost a lot more lives.

"I'm sure that the families of the millions who possibly could have died in the ground invasion of USA feel the exact same way."

you see? i just changed your sentence.

DUH!!! Any kind of killing is bad. And it doesen't make it better wheather you kill one, 1000, 10.000, 100.000, a million....

[Col.Kurtz]

I'm an American. All the stuff you Canadians said Americans don't do, I see done every day. I hold doors open for people all the time, and they give a warm smile and say thankyou.

I love all countries, and don't have anything against any country or it's citizens. I do think it is unfortunate that so many Canadians look down on us so much though. I read an article somewhere that a lot of Canadians have the same view of America as people in Syria.

I appologize for my fellow citizens for giving you a bad impression Lucky, but I can assure you that the citizens of our contries don't have some big difference that makes one countries citizens smarter and more polite than the others. It's not fair to assume something of someone just because they are American.

And a lot of countries hate America because they hate our government. But they don't realise that 50% of the American population hate our government too.

more like 47%? LOLLOL

[mastablasta]

Europe is so much nicer to its employees...with an average work week of 30-35 hours, as opposed to the 40-60 in the US. It makes me want to be French. Because I really hate the feeling I get of being imprisoned when I'm at work...


You know, France is not the only country in Europe.

Norway and Sweeden have some things made a lot better than France in this area. So do we.

Even in EU (with some common laws) countries varry a lot in workers legislation. While people in France work 7.5 hours per day we for example work 8 hours, but the 30 minute lunch break is counted in and payed for.

My company even has a bit changed policy of wokring hours. We work (lunch included offocurse) 8.5 hours on first 4 days in week and we work only 6 hours on Friday. Which extends my weekend substantially. but all together it's 40 hours.

Then we dont' get payed for overtime unless the overtime is wokring past 17:00. For this you need to get special permission.
Any other overtime hours you make (let's say you work form 7:00 till 16:00 is free time. In this case you get 30 minutes you can spend some other time (for example go home earlier).

So if you are efficient during first 4 days in the week and work 9 hours you can go home on Friday ater 4 hours work.

This system made me save 2 free days. I woker overtime a bit. I plan to spend them by adding them to my other vacation days (since i am a begginer i have 25 of those, older people have 35).

[Col.Kurtz]

You sound really really really full of yourself (your country?) in this post.

And just curious, what makes your military the best in the world?
well do a google and see, and the reason the United States is the best country, is because we're made up of people from every country we have people of all kinds of nationalities, not just mainly german, or french

[Col.Kurtz]

[QUOTE=Kak]Hrm I wonder what political party you share your opinions with.

Sounds just like Bush: "They hate our freedom!" [QUOTE]


lol bush is a bigger dumbass then lucky

[Col.Kurtz]

wow you just wrote: Attacks on civilians are ok, because invasion might kill more.

What i see written up there is: WTC terrorist attack was good, because an invasion would cost a lot more lives.

"I'm sure that the families of the millions who possibly could have died in the ground invasion of USA feel the exact same way."

you see? i just changed your sentence.

DUH!!! Any kind of killing is bad. And it doesen't make it better wheather you kill one, 1000, 10.000, 100.000, a million....
what do you care about the million + US Russian troops it would have taken to invade japan, you just know that dropping the bomb was wrong dont you? have you even met a russian or united states war vet?

tell you what i'll give you my grand fathers address and you can send him a letter telling him that you'd rather see him and countless other lives gone just so we can be humane on the same enemy that would fly there own explosive ladden'd planes into our ships, the enemy who treated our troops like slaves, killing them for no reason at all more then a 1000 times at least. just so that we can take a few prisoners from of the rest of japan would have fought to the death? you tell my grand father and the rest of the ww2 vets that dropping those bombs were wrong, infact, if my grand father would have gone to japan than i wouldnt be here, so plz tell me how wrong it was

[Modest Genius]

GC: I do not remember if it was 8 hour days or 40 hour weeks.48 hours a week. with exceptions for doctors and a few others. oh and the whole of britain, because blair is an idiot and decided not to ratify it

[Chris R]

wow you just wrote: Attacks on civilians are ok, because invasion might kill more.

What i see written up there is: WTC terrorist attack was good, because an invasion would cost a lot more lives.

"I'm sure that the families of the millions who possibly could have died in the ground invasion of USA feel the exact same way."

you see? i just changed your sentence.

DUH!!! Any kind of killing is bad. And it doesen't make it better wheather you kill one, 1000, 10.000, 100.000, a million....

Except, one, we had a legit reason to commit such an act against Japan, you know, with the Pearl Harbor thing and all.

And two, I kinda figure the less dead we have the better, lesser of two evils.

[Modest Genius]

selecte summary executions by the army of a civilian population is a lesser evil than gassing them all. does that mean we should select one of them anyway?

and pearl harbour was an attack on a military target, unlike dropping the bombs

[Col.Kurtz]

would you have wanted to invade japan modest?

[Chris R]

selecte summary executions by the army of a civilian population is a lesser evil than gassing them all. does that mean we should select one of them anyway?

In war, especailly a war like WWII, you have to select something.

and pearl harbour was an attack on a military target, unlike dropping the bombs

If I recall correctly, there were military targets in both cities.

[Whoami88]

Keep in mind its a hell of alot easier of us today to question the morality of war when its over 60 years ago. Back then we saw things a very different way, Japan was an enemy of the country and must be defeated at all costs. Its a fucken World War people, being nice and humane ain't gonna win shit in such a brutal period of time that was World War 2. Hell, I believe it was nuclear weapons that saved us from World War III right after WW2. Hell the Allies really expected the Soviet Union to keep steamrolling through Europe after they took Berlin, German Soldiers who escaped Berlin to the Allies were given back their guns to fight along side Allied troops.*

My basic argument, War is Hell, accept it


*I saw this on the History channel so don't ask me for links, if anyone wants to discredit me go ahead

[Modest Genius]

would you have wanted to invade japan modest?no

mind you, i wouldnt have wanted to drop the atom bombs either

ill never know if it was possible, but if it was up to me i would have tried to find an alternative to both. that might make me a peace-loving-hippy, but id have tried

Keep in mind its a hell of alot easier of us today to question the morality of war when its over 60 years ago. Back then we saw things a very different way, Japan was an enemy of the country and must be defeated at all costs.agreed. hence why i think col kurtz's question was somewhat pointless

[lucky644]

If I recall correctly, there were military targets in both cities.

I don't remember that, what targets were there?

[Col.Kurtz]

no

mind you, i wouldnt have wanted to drop the atom bombs either

ill never know if it was possible, but if it was up to me i would have tried to find an alternative to both. that might make me a peace-loving-hippy, but id have tried

agreed. hence why i think col kurtz's question was somewhat pointless

if you knew what the japanese were like you'd know that there isnt much else to do, they dont like to talk peace, so you can either invade them or drop the bomb. and if correct me if im wrong but, key figures in the japanese mil. staged a kuop, so even if the emp. wanted peace its not like he could declare it.

[Whoami88]

There wasn't really ever a coup, its more that the Emperor was incomponent. He wasn't really under the control of the Military, he just agreed with everything they said and never really gave his own opinion.

There was a failed coup on the emperor to continue the war after the two atomic bombs were set off. So even after they were nuked there was still some Jap military guys that wanted to keep fighting.

[mastablasta]

what do you care about the million + US Russian troops it would have taken to invade japan, you just know that dropping the bomb was wrong dont you? have you even met a russian or united states war vet?

tell you what i'll give you my grand fathers address and you can send him a letter telling him that you'd rather see him and countless other lives gone just so we can be humane on the same enemy that would fly there own explosive ladden'd planes into our ships, the enemy who treated our troops like slaves, killing them for no reason at all more then a 1000 times at least. just so that we can take a few prisoners from of the rest of japan would have fought to the death? you tell my grand father and the rest of the ww2 vets that dropping those bombs were wrong, infact, if my grand father would have gone to japan than i wouldnt be here, so plz tell me how wrong it was

Why would you need to invade it anyway???
You are also changing your argument point as soon as i showed you how flawed it is. If you still think you are correct in your opinion you should use different argument to back it up.

First you said it's ok, because otherwise even more people would get killed.
then i showed you how it's still not ok to kill a lot of civilians just for that reason or for something that might have happened (like invasion).
now you are giving me different argument how actually your soldiers were "tired" and didn't/wouldn't want to die. or would at least suffer/die a lot.

So this was not made to protect your civilians or to protect Japanese, but to protect your soldiers which would die in invasion?

So why was there even a need for invasion? Why not just assasinate some key people (cut the snakes head off)? Would it still be ok if they could retaliate with same force?

[GoatChomper]

mind you, i wouldnt have wanted to drop the atom bombs either

ill never know if it was possible, but if it was up to me i would have tried to find an alternative to both. that might make me a peace-loving-hippy, but id have tried
The two-fold fallacy.....that all methods have an equal chance of success, and that everybody is interested in dialogue.

Tellingly, the only other alternative I've ever seen posited was that of blockade.....and that too takes guns.

[Modest Genius]

sure, i never claimed to be any more competant to make the decision. and you are correct that there is a cost-to-chance-of-sucess factor to bring in

[Col.Kurtz]

Why would you need to invade it anyway???
You are also changing your argument point as soon as i showed you how flawed it is. If you still think you are correct in your opinion you should use different argument to back it up.

First you said it's ok, because otherwise even more people would get killed.
then i showed you how it's still not ok to kill a lot of civilians just for that reason or for something that might have happened (like invasion).
now you are giving me different argument how actually your soldiers were "tired" and didn't/wouldn't want to die. or would at least suffer/die a lot.

So this was not made to protect your civilians or to protect Japanese, but to protect your soldiers which would die in invasion?

So why was there even a need for invasion? Why not just assasinate some key people (cut the snakes head off)? Would it still be ok if they could retaliate with same force?

assasination is wrong and i have not and will ener support it, actually i never shifted arguements i've just given more and more reasons why the bomb was needed, you have yet to poke even a small hole in my reasoning. and as far as killing civi;s the japs would never have had to worry about that if they never would have sneak attacked us. but yes i would have rather seen every single japanese on that island die then just even one of our soilders.

what country are you from anyways?

also you keep asking why we needed to invade any way, well maybe becuase we were at war with them? and the only way to beat those fkers at that time was kill them all, once again they would never have quit even after we held the island

[Chris R]

I don't remember that, what targets were there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Nagasaki _during_World_War_II

In Nagasaki,

he city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works

In Hiroshima,

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Some military camps were located nearby such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a major supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. The city was mobilized for "all-out" war, with thousands of conscripted women, children and Koreans working in military offices, military factories and building demolition and with women and children training to resist any invading force.[3] [4] [5] [6]

[Whoami88]

LOL, thats funny, why invade Japan...

Why invade Germany in World War II? Answer that and you would have answered your question about Japan. :rolleyes:

Besides, how the fuck are we gonna assasinate key members? Its kinda hard for an American to blend in Japanese population :rolleyes:

Assasination might drive them more into fighting to the death because they would see it as cowardly and an act of desperation

[Modest Genius]

the answer youre looking for is 'regime change'. if the victors didnt need to remove the regime, they could have just offered peace terms

[Col.Kurtz]

modest just go ahead and say americans suck for dropping the bomb and lock this thread its going no where, i can see some countries grossly under educate their people on the atom bomb, but we all know at heart that the holocoast was much less as horrible as dropping the atom bomb.

lock plz.

[Walnut]

and pearl harbour was an attack on a military target, unlike dropping the bombs

The attack (I'M REFERRING TO PEARL HARBOR) was directed at a military target, but some civilians were killed.

There was no alternative to dropping the bombs that would have resulted in fewer deaths, therefore it was justified.

edited to clarify, though I think it was obvious which attack I was referring to in the first sentence by the use of the word "some"

[BlindSite]

Even if it was a military attack, The United States was not at war with Japan or Germany, in the latter case, Japan and THe US were at war.

[Blutschnetzler]

The attack was directed at a military target, but some civilians were killed.

There was no alternative to dropping the bombs that would have resulted in fewer deaths, therefore it was justified.


SOME(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) civilians????????????????????????????????? That's why people hate the USA!

[solidsnake]

Actually we were bombed because werent neutral because we were suppling arms to the Chinese and we stopped giving the Japanese oil. So Japan attacked us. And why bitch about the atomic bombs being dropped on Japan when the Allies were fire bombing German towns. And hitler was killing mass numbers of Jews.

[Chris R]

Actually we were bombed because werent neutral because we were suppling arms to the Chinese and we stopped giving the Japanese oil. So Japan attacked us. And why bitch about the atomic bombs being dropped on Japan when the Allies were fire bombing German towns. And hitler was killing mass numbers of Jews.
Well, Japan wasn't just "invading" another country, they were more or less systematicly raping it, quite literally, at that.


SOME(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) civilians????????????????????????????????? That's why people hate the USA!

Yes, some civilians. As I said earlier, many more people who have died if we did an invasion, or we could have bombed Tokyo and really killed a large number of civilians. Was the dropping of the atomic bomb horrible, especially with civilian casualties? Of course. Yet we didn't have a large number of options.

[Agent Law]

There was no alternative to dropping the bombs that would have resulted in fewer deaths, therefore it was justified.
Probably make it not so much justified, but a more tactical option.

[Violin]

Jesus, didnt think this would get too popular... Well thanks for all the input guys. :D Ive got a better grasp on this topic now. Thank you so much.

[Modest Genius]

modest just go ahead and say americans suck for dropping the bomb and lock this thread its going no where, i can see some countries grossly under educate their people on the atom bomb, but we all know at heart that the holocoast was much less as horrible as dropping the atom bomb.1. i dont moderate this forum
2. the fact that i am a moderator has no bearing upon my opinions or how i express them
3. i never said americans suck, or that the holocaust was less horrible than the bomb
4. nor have i ever implied those things
5. why are you implying that my opinion relies upon my countries education system? i am capable of thinking for myself. besides, i live in a nuclear power, so would hardly be indoctrinated to hate the bomb

[Blutschnetzler]

Yes, some civilians. As I said earlier, many more people who have died if we did an invasion, or we could have bombed Tokyo and really killed a large number of civilians. Was the dropping of the atomic bomb horrible, especially with civilian casualties? Of course. Yet we didn't have a large number of options.

It's not the number of casualties alone. The bombs killed defenseless civilians, an invasion COULD have killed more people but at least it would have hit soldiers. And an "invasion" was NOT the inevitable consequence of not dropping 2(!!!) a-bombs.

You can't legitimate the bombs with comparing it to other things like holocaust and so on.

[Chris R]

You can't legitimate the bombs with comparing it to other things like holocaust and so on.

If you can quote me on where I said this, go ahead.

It's not the number of casualties alone. The bombs killed defenseless civilians, an invasion COULD have killed more people but at least it would have hit soldiers. And an "invasion" was NOT the inevitable consequence of not dropping 2(!!!) a-bombs.
I'd say that if we had to fight tooth and nail through Japanese land, including major cities, people would have died. That would have also required the use of more bombs, including more firebombing, which would have incured more civilian deaths.

An invasion might not of been the consequence, but unless the Japanese would have been willing to surrender, I don't believe that we had much other choice than to invade. There also wasn't much point in having our troops continue to die every day while the Japanese fiddled around with deciding to either be diplomatic or keep fighting.

Secondly, when the Japanese invaded China, it wasn't soldiers that they were raping, it was defenseless civilians. I apologize if I am not entire sympathetic with the Japanese when it comes to civilian casualties.

[Blutschnetzler]

If you can quote me on where I said this, go ahead.



I referred to Solidsnake's words!

[solidsnake]

You can't legitimate the bombs with comparing it to other things like holocaust and so on.

Well considering the holocaust and firebombings were carried out by the military on civilians. And the a-bombs were dropped on civilains why cant I.

[Walnut]

SOME(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) civilians????????????????????????????????? That's why people hate the USA!

I was talking about Pearl Harbor. I think that would have been obvious by the use of the word "some".

The bombs killed defenseless civilians, an invasion COULD have killed more people but at least it would have hit soldiers.

Millions of Japanese civilians were being trained to fight against an invasion. It wouldn't just have been members of the military, as everyone in Japan was considered a military asset.

[Lord Kelvin]

Well considering the holocaust and firebombings were carried out by the military on civilians. And the a-bombs were dropped on civilains why cant I.
The Holocaust was directed at Jews, gypsies, and other "undesirables". They excluded regular German civilians. Whereas the firebombings killed soldiers and civilians indiscriminately; it didn't filter out anything at all. So no, you can't legitimize the Holocause with firebombing. Both were wrong, but some things are worse than others. You can't justify one wrong with another, despite the fact that people do it all the time.

[Col.Kurtz]

i didnt mean to say thats what you believed modest, i guess i was trying to say was, thats about all that i learned from reading/posting in this thread, and that it might as well be locked, and that if you had the power it would be nice if you could do it.

[GrosPoisson]

The bombs killed defenseless civilians, an invasion COULD have killed more people but at least it would have hit soldiers.

And likely cause even more civlian deaths. As mentioned by others, the average Japanese citizen was expected to resist invaders as well. Even if that didn't end up happening, it's not too farfetched to imagine repeats of that incident where the Japanese civilians committed suicide by jumping off a cliff because they heard rumors about American soldiers committing atrocities.

[Lord Kelvin]

Also, did anyone watch that History Channel special about the 189th (?) Bomb Wing attack that collapsed the attempted coup against the Emperor? We got lucky there, because if it hadn't happened the US might have had to kill a hell of a lot more civilians even after the bombings.

[GoatChomper]

Actually we were bombed because werent neutral because we were suppling arms to the Chinese and we stopped giving the Japanese oil. So Japan attacked us.
Just plain wrong.

Certain Victory wasn't an end unto itself.....its stated aim was merely that of neutralizing the threat posed by the US Pacific Fleet to the flank of the Japanese Navy task force supporting the invasion of Malaysia and Indochina.

Yamamoto presented the plan to the Imperial Staff as merely one of several alternatives with the proviso (based on his own extensive personal knowledge of the USA) that the United States likely wouldn't sit still for this, and he was proved correct.

[Violin]

Im resurecting this thread. I have some questions I'd like answered.

There have been several opinions that America are the bullies of world. Why is that? I feel that we do things because if we don't, then who will?

I always hear so many negative opinoins from people in England and Europe itself, I dont see why they have such a bad opinion of us. Did we do something that changed their lives in such a negative manner to hate us? It seems like most of these feelings seem to be fueled by jealousy and ignorance.

And if they hate us because of our president, we may get a new preseident in 4 years, or we will definatly get a new president in 8 years (I am aware that this is Bushes last presidency). So honestly, there is no reason to hate our country when our president is not some sort of tyrant and is only temporary.

I just dont see why all the hate is directed towards us.

[Modest Genius]

I always hear so many negative opinoins from people in England and Europe itself, I dont see why they have such a bad opinion of us. Did we do something that changed their lives in such a negative manner to hate us? It seems like most of these feelings seem to be fueled by jealousy and ignorance.not necessarily ours, often our indignance is caused by harm caused to developing countries and struggling democracies (for a recent examples, see Astride ousting from Haiti and the collapse of the Thai bhat due to US currency speculators and enforced market fundmentalism through the IMF)

did you read the Krysstal link (its on the first page of this thread)? thats probably the best explanation of what i mean

[Toastar]

There have been several opinions that America are the bullies of world. Why is that? I feel that we do things because if we don't, then who will?

-vietnam
-"dont make nukes, only we're allowed to have nukes"
-bay of pigs
-"we're taxing your stuff because we feel like it although its illegal (lumber)"
-afghanistan
-iraq

[Violin]

vietnam
"dont make nukes, only we're allowed to have nukes"
few other things

Your vietnam comment baffles me on all levels.

What few other things?

[Ch33zy]

I think he meant to put commas in there or somthing.

[Toastar]

happy?

[Lord Kelvin]

I think that it has more to do with how each act of the administration is interpreted by outsiders rather than the administration intending actual harm. Yes, the administration has fucked up on some things, but most of them were likely in good faith; it is possible for someone to try to help, only to make things worse. Also, consider that the US has an obligation more towards its own citizens than to citizens of other countries, so if there ever comes a predicament between those two then guess which one the US would choose? (Yes, I'm aware that the image that the administration is trying to project is quite different, but consider that US citizens are taxpayers to the US government, whereas the citizens of other countries have no obligation, and in some cases no way, to repay the US for helping them.)

[LSky]

People hate us because we think we can police the world but we cant.As an not-so-fond-of-USA-person, i would see this as a representative statement. Saying, this goes for me and a lot of people. More tommorow, as its bed time :)

[pk!]

Harold Pinter put it quite well in his Nobel Prize acceptance speech. In another speech, on Wilfred Owen, he said

Wilfred Owen was a great poet. He articulated the tragedy, the horror and indeed the pity – of war – in a way no other poet has. Yet we have learnt nothing. Nearly 100 years after his death the world has become more savage, more brutal, more pitiless.

But the “free world” we are told (as embodied in the United States and Great Britain) is different to the rest of the world since our actions are dictated and sanctioned by a moral authority and a moral passion condoned by someone called God. Some people may find this difficult to comprehend but Osama Bin Laden finds it easy.

What would Wilfred Owen make of the invasion of Iraq? A bandit act, an act of blatant state terrorism, demonstrating absolute contempt for the concept of International Law. An arbitrary military action inspired by a series of lies upon lies and gross manipulation of the media and therefore of the public. An act intended to consolidate American military and economic control of the Middle East masquerading – as a last resort (all other justifications having failed to justify themselves) – as liberation. A formidable assertion of military force responsible for the death and mutilation of thousands upon thousands of innocent people.

An independent and totally objective account of the Iraqi civilian dead in the medical magazine The Lancet estimates that the figure approaches 100,000. But neither the US or the UK bother to count the Iraqi dead. As General Tommy Franks (US Central Command) memorably said: “We don't do body counts”.

We have brought torture, cluster bombs, depleted uranium, innumerable acts of random murder, misery and degradation to the Iraqi people and call it “bringing freedom and democracy to the Middle East”. But, as we all know, we have not been welcomed with the predicted flowers. What we have unleashed is a ferocious and unremitting resistance, mayhem and chaos.

You may say at this point: what about the Iraqi elections? Well President Bush himself answered this question only the other day when he said “We cannot accept that there can be free democratic elections in a country under foreign military occupation”.

I had to read that statement twice before I realised that he was talking about Lebanon and Syria.

What do Bush and Blair actually see when they look at themselves in the mirror?

I believe Wilfred Owen would share our contempt, our revulsion, our nausea and our shame at both the language and the actions of the American and British governments.

Harold Pinter

[pk!]

And here's another view:

Stockholm. Evening. Harold Pinter is introduced to the Swedish Academy. He enters from stage left. He wears a loose-fitting tuxedo.

PINTER: Your Majesty. Members of the Academy. Ladies and Gentlemen.

(beat)

PINTER: Thank you for this honour.

(pause)

Pinter removes a pistol from his tuxedo jacket and places it on the podium.

PINTER: When I began writing, I had no such aspirations, but I can see the logic of your choice. And yet . . . it seems as though this took too long for you to realize it. Do you see?

(pause)

PINTER: We live in an age of menace. Of dangers both spoken . . . and left to our impoverished imaginations, assaulted as they are by technology, faith and above all, politics. We live in an age of menace.

(beat)

PINTER: I do thank you for this honour . . .

Pinter places his hand next to the pistol on the podium.

(pause)

PINTER: But I am uncertain about how to respond to the tribute, tardy as it is …

(beat)

Pinter taps his fingers next to the pistol.

PINTER: Yes, we live in an age of menace. Of evil that is banal. Civilization itself, it seems, is a thin pretense. Language is used to obscure and distort reality. Because we fear it?

(pause)

PINTER: And so, tonight, I would have you all think about that.

(pause)

(pause)

Pinter taps fingers again.

(pause)

[Shinobi]

I dont hate, but I do have many MAJOR qualms with the USA

off the top of my head 2 things that piss me off are the softwood lumber dispute and the powerex re-neg

[LSky]

-edit- deserves its own thread imho

[Noirceur]

"The two easiest ways to go through life: believing everything you hear, and believing nothing you hear.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

I'm medium-left and I think Moore is kind of a dumbo. And I love my country.

i like to think i'm kinda in the middle, but probably leanin towards the right (afaik), and I happen to think moore's kind of a crackpot. bush, i don't know about. i seem to get the impression he WANTS everyone to think he's stupid, but I believe he has a well-hidden agenda. honestly, i wouldn't be at all surprised, especially if it went deeper than mere oil.

and as far as why I hate america:

stomp on the poor and helpless, suck the ***** of anyone who has money. partly due to the nature of capitalism, I believe.

the most applicable example I can give is rising gas prices. i would have had to face paying almost $180/mo. just to gas up my truck (had gas stayed above $3/gallon here in orlando), on top of all of my other bills, when I make only $1400/mo. on average. any wealthy person wouldn't even care about a minor increase in fuel prices.

/rant

[GoatChomper]

and as far as why I hate america:

stomp on the poor and helpless.....
So who's doing that? Most of our "poor" lead a lifestyle that much of the Third World would kill to get.

[LSky]

So who's doing that? Most of our "poor" lead a lifestyle that much of the Third World would kill to get.
Dunno if this has a lot to do with it, but a lot of people which resemble minorities in the USA are actually the ones fighting in the Iraq war. Its the poor black guy who goes out and fight for his (or her) country. Why are those people still so poor, can't be all their foult, can it?

[Army GI]

Dunno if this has a lot to do with it, but a lot of people which resemble minorities in the USA are actually the ones fighting in the Iraq war. Its the poor black guy who goes out and fight for his (or her) country. Why are those people still so poor, can't be all their foult, can it?
link?

I read in my Army reserve magazine that the majority of troops are white.

[Walnut]

Dunno if this has a lot to do with it, but a lot of people which resemble minorities in the USA are actually the ones fighting in the Iraq war. Its the poor black guy who goes out and fight for his (or her) country. Why are those people still so poor, can't be all their foult, can it?

The majority of soldiers are white.

[LSky]

Okay, thats bad/outdated info on my side.

[Luguberos]

There have been several opinions that America are the bullies of world. Why is that?

Latin America, and the fact that most Americans don't know or care what their taxes have been doing there. If case you missed my post on page 6, our government tends to support whomever best serves its interests. For example, we'll support every murderous dictator in Latin America if it contributes to our bottom line and keeps the Soviets out of our backyard.

I feel that we do things because if we don't, then who will?

We aren't the police of the world, and we aren't trying to be. We're merely dealing with problems that affect us. That's my observation, at least.

[DasHuhn]

We aren't the police of the world, and we aren't trying to be. We're merely dealing with problems that affect us. That's my observation, at least.
I would very, very much disagree with you. After WW2 happend because of us (we had a chance to stop it, we didn't) and we became a hegemon, we started 'policing' the world, mainly to better ourselfs and our economy.

[Franco]

I didn't read any posts, but IMO, people get pissed at us but still can't do without what the US brings them in ways of culture, art, media, technology, etc.

That and it's not easy being the best. But thats just my opinion.

[HarryB]

I would very, very much disagree with you. After WW2 happend because of us (we had a chance to stop it, we didn't) and we became a hegemon, we started 'policing' the world, mainly to better ourselfs and our economy.


Though I could care less of America either way, you might want to rephrase that sentence.

[Army GI]

Does it anger other people that we don't really care if they hate us?

I don't know anybody that cares, and I've visited half the country in person.

Though, if everyone really did hate us, they wouldn't be influenced by American culture.

[Stig]

After WW2 happend because of us (we had a chance to stop it, we didn't)
I said that I wouldn't get involved with this thread, but this is really a brain stumper, I do not get how someone can think this.

[GoatChomper]

Okay, thats bad/outdated info on my side.
The former.....bad data.

http://www.rjsmith.com/war_myth.html#service

[Luguberos]

I would very, very much disagree with you. After WW2 happend because of us (we had a chance to stop it, we didn't) and we became a hegemon, we started 'policing' the world, mainly to better ourselfs and our economy.

I can agree with that (the policing part, at least), as it seems we only disagree over my choice of words.

I didn't read any posts, but IMO, people get pissed at us but still can't do without what the US brings them in ways of culture, art, media, technology, etc.

Keeping up technologically shouldn't have to mean replacing your culture with an outlandish one. Many folks love their culture and see Americanization for the threat that it is.

[GoatChomper]

Many folks love their culture and see Americanization for the threat that it is.
Adopting it is entirely optional.....as much as Jose Bove liked to trash McDonald's in France, even he has to admit that nobody forces his neighbors to patronize the chain.

Nor, for that matter, will you find many people who feel "threatened" by Cinco de Mayo or Dieciseis de Septiembre celebrations here. The latter event had no US connection whatsoever, while the former had only the most tenuous one in that the "victor" was born in Texas and spent the first few years of his life here, years before Texas became a part of the USA.....yet both are still huge if unofficial US holidays even among the non-immigrant population.

Juneteenth is celebrated in over a dozen states and even in Canada, and it's not even a national USA event.....it's a strictly Texas one. People will import what they want, regardless of the wishes of the self-annointed guardians of cultural correctness and their jeremiads of a "threat".

And speaking of Jose Bove and France.....care to guess where blue jeans, ineradicably linked to US culture, came from?

[DasHuhn]

I said that I wouldn't get involved with this thread, but this is really a brain stumper, I do not get how someone can think this.
Ok, we were given a chance to meet with england, france, germany, we choose not to go there. In that conference, i beleive they essentially told germany they could have poland. Had FDR gone, I believe there was/is a quote saying he wouldn't give in to Germany's request. He didn't go. It didn't get stopped.

I realize i could be completely wrong, but i have heard several of my professors say this during lecture, and havn't really seen anything against it, so..yeah.

[marty]

Ok, we were given a chance to meet with england, france, germany, we choose not to go there. In that conference, i beleive they essentially told germany they could have poland. Had FDR gone, I believe there was/is a quote saying he wouldn't give in to Germany's request. He didn't go. It didn't get stopped. Whoa whoa whoa. I know Ad Hominem doesn't further my argument, but I have no argument to make: Are you fucking dense?

I realize i could be completely wrong, but i have heard several of my professors say this during lecture, and havn't really seen anything against it, so..yeah.Oh, my bad, just your professors, then.

For one thing, INVADING POLAND WAS THE REASON WW2 EVEN STARTED. They DIDN'T give him Poland. So he took it. You're thinking of the so-called "Sudetenland". What makes your professors think he wouldn't have started WW2 over it?

Hitler WANTED to start WW2 over Sudetenland, originally. He was actually disappointed when they gave it to him, because he wanted to use it in justifying a war.

Good God, that's not even 1% of the fucking story. Next time you meet your profs, hit them in the goddamn head and fucking strangle them to death for influencing so many people to believe that (subtly pro-Hitler) bullshit.

[Army GI]

My professors told me so, so they must be 100% right and since I have no mind of my own I will believe them to the fullest extent. Because you know, professors are never wrong.

I hate my professors. Some of them know their stuff, but some can't even remember if the vietnam war came before or after WWI. I wouldn't place too much trust on what they say.

[DasHuhn]

Whoa whoa whoa. I know Ad Hominem doesn't further my argument, but I have no argument to make: Are you fucking dense?

Oh, my bad, just your professors, then.

For one thing, INVADING POLAND WAS THE REASON WW2 EVEN STARTED. They DIDN'T give him Poland. So he took it. You're thinking of the so-called "Sudetenland". What makes your professors think he wouldn't have started WW2 over it?

Hitler WANTED to start WW2 over Sudetenland, originally. He was actually disappointed when they gave it to him, because he wanted to use it in justifying a war.

Good God, that's not even 1% of the fucking story. Next time you meet your profs, hit them in the goddamn head and fucking strangle them to death for influencing so many people to believe that (subtly pro-Hitler) bullshit.

Eh, i thought it was poland. It was 3 3/4's a semester ago, he could've said the sudtenland instead. So, the poland thing could've easily been me and not him.

My professors told me so, so they must be 100% right and since I have no mind of my own I will believe them to the fullest extent. Because you know, professors are never wrong.

They show me proof about something i know little about. Should i call them on the spot and start shouting out "you're full of shit!" when they have more knowledge and more dedicated time into researching X than i do? Or do i accept what they say until shown proof otherwise?

For example, i'm going to state that the US military has spent close to 6 or 8 times more than the 2nd highest spent military in the world. I got that from a professor as well. Should i call bullshit on that, or should i accept that perhaps we do?

[Army GI]

They show me proof about something i know little about. Should i call them on the spot and start shouting out "you're full of shit!" when they have more knowledge and more dedicated time into researching X than i do? Or do i accept what they say until shown proof otherwise??

Hey that's your idea. I never mentioned or implied anything of the sort. I just said don't believe everything you hear, especially if it's coming from a single source that may or may not be biased.

Especially a professor that claims the US started WWII...that's a little over the top. I'd keep my eye on someone that made profound statements like that. But like you said that was 2 years ago so that may just be blurry memory.

[Luguberos]

Adopting it is entirely optional.....as much as Jose Bove liked to trash McDonald's in France, even he has to admit that nobody forces his neighbors to patronize the chain.

Nor, for that matter, will you find many people who feel "threatened" by Cinco de Mayo or Dieciseis de Septiembre celebrations here. The latter event had no US connection whatsoever, while the former had only the most tenuous one in that the "victor" was born in Texas and spent the first few years of his life here, years before Texas became a part of the USA.....yet both are still huge if unofficial US holidays even among the non-immigrant population.

Juneteenth is celebrated in over a dozen states and even in Canada, and it's not even a national USA event.....it's a strictly Texas one. People will import what they want, regardless of the wishes of the self-annointed guardians of cultural correctness and their jeremiads of a "threat".

You got me, though your examples aren't at all what i had in mind. I have nothing against a little cultural exchange, and i'm no more against folks eating unhealthy food in France than i'm against folks eathing it here; if someone would rather eat fries than a normal vegetable every day, that's freedom. I am merely against cultural imperialism that dominates. But if a folk is dominated by it unwittingly, and bemoans it later, it's their own fault.

[DasHuhn]

Hey that's your idea. I never mentioned or implied anything of the sort. I just said don't believe everything you hear, especially if it's coming from a single source that may or may not be biased.

Especially a professor that claims the US started WWII...that's a little over the top. I'd keep my eye on someone that made profound statements like that. But like you said that was 2 years ago so that may just be blurry memory.

Eh, it wasn't that us started WW2, it was that we failed to stop it due to isolatzation and ect.

[Agent Law]

Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to criticize past decisions knowing what happens next, but can you say for certain that you would have sent an army to prevent what was going to happen from happening if you didn't know what was going to happen? As well, a U.S. force attacking to take someone out of power may not have been seen as a very popular act on the part of the people.

[Army GI]

Eh, it wasn't that us started WW2, it was that we failed to stop it due to isolatzation and ect.
Oh, so back then it was our job to police the world, but now the world is not our business? I get it.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

That, and the american government lies to it's people, and tries to justify 'wars' through propaganda and bad information.

Personally I've had quite a few bad experiences with americans visiting Canada, a month ago this american family was at a Days Inn (that had JUST finished being renovated) and they decided to park their truck in their parking lot. Now, mind you, they were not even staying at the Days Inn. Anyhow, they proceeded to let both their huge dogs out which took shits on the newly created landscaping, and emptied a cooler of ice out on the lawn, and started throwing their trash out all over the place. (I'm serious, just tossed it out of their vehicle everywhere, when there was a trashcan just 100ft away.) I know the owner, and he's not an angry man, but when they started to leave without cleaning anything up, he just blew.

When he asked why he was tossing all his shit out on his property, he replied "well i didn't want it in my vehicle" And they had the balls to call us canadians 'unfriendly' when he drove off.

And just a couple days ago I was at a gas station, parked behind an american who was fueling up (blocking ALL the pumps, instead of being nice and pulling up to the last one to make room behind him) and I stepped out of my car and waited. When he finished, he just locked his vehicle, set the alarm and went inside. I couldn't believe what a prick he was, he must have been inside for 10 minutes before he came back out so I could fuel up. He could have at least pulled off to the side to let traffic continue to fuel up.

The main point here is it seems they have no respect for other people, property, or countries in general, even when they're visiting.

These are just a couple recent times mind you..


please don't associate that pissant, white-trash family with the rest of us semi-decent Americans. i may be a slob, myself, but at least I do a good job of keeping my mess to myself.

[Army GI]

I just think its funny that we're accused of stereotyping Canadians (or europeans) yet they do the same thing right back at us. You know not all Americans are uncultured poor slobs from the south or LA. I came from an upper middle class family and I was raised to respect other people.

You're just unlucky enough to be exposed to the loud minority. Do you think we have fun being around yokels like that? Hell no!

[GoatChomper]

Ok, we were given a chance to meet with england, france, germany, we choose not to go there. In that conference, i beleive they essentially told germany they could have poland. Had FDR gone, I believe there was/is a quote saying he wouldn't give in to Germany's request.
You refer to the 1938 Munich Conference in which the European powers acceded to Germany's demand for the Sudetenland in exchange for eschewing further teritorial demands, to which Germany demonstrated its faith in and adherance to the agreement by invading Poland two years later. What makes you professor think a US veto vote would have made Germany not do as it pleased escapes me.
I am merely against cultural imperialism that dominates.
A vapid, meaningless phrase created to hide the fact that people will adopt what they please.

[Agent Law]

I just think its funny that we're accused of stereotyping Canadians (or europeans) yet they do the same thing right back at us. You know not all Americans are uncultured poor slobs from the south or LA. I came from an upper middle class family and I was raised to respect other people.
I usually try to tell people that.

Of course, they interject with the very intelligible, "ollololoo amerikans r dumm!1!!"

[DasHuhn]

Oh, so back then it was our job to police the world, but now the world is not our business? I get it.
I'm gonna go with "the world should've been our business then, it wasn't, however, it's our buisness now"

What makes you professor think a US veto vote would have made Germany not do as it pleased escapes me.

I don't know either. I'm just saying what i've heard in the past. I get it, my professor is an idiot :p

[Army GI]

I'm gonna go with "the world should've been our business then, it wasn't, however, it's our buisness now"
Not what I was getting at, but whatever.

[Army GI]

I usually try to tell people that.

Of course, they interject with the very intelligible, "ollololoo amerikans r dumm!1!!"
Which is why everyone is trying to copy us!

jk

Usually, I find that the more intelligent someone is, the less they stay out of these kinds of agruments altogether. They know that nobody's country is perfect, why should their own be any different when talking about the US? Afterall, the US was founded by Europeans.

I guess it just makes for good forum debates. I never see this kind of mudslinging unless its stand up comedy.

[pk!]

I guess the single thing that could have postponed or prevented WW2 was if Mussolini had opposed the Anschluss.

Back on thread, I remember 1976 - it was a very hot summer and I went to the Lake District for the first time, climbing Scafell and most of the Western Fells. Some people remember 1976 because America bombed their country that year with more tonnage thn that dropped in WW2, killing up to 10% of the population without even the courtesy of having declared war first. It's that kind of thing that gives a bad impression, you know.

[Discobird]

Some people remember 1976 because America bombed their country that year with more tonnage thn that dropped in WW2, killing up to 10% of the population without even the courtesy of having declared war first.
What country would that be? The first country I think of is Cambodia but the US stopped bombing operations in 1973.

[Moe_Rahn]

What country would that be? The first country I think of is Cambodia but the US stopped bombing operations in 1973.
And our military presence had withdrawn from the area by mid-1975.

I can't find record of us bombing anyone in 1976, especially to the degree noted by pk!, but there is always the chance that I am wrong.

[Dave]

People hate America becuase of people like Tucker Carlson. Damn I hate that guy.

And what the fuck is the deal with that wall on the 49th?!

[Moe_Rahn]

People hate America becuase of people like Tucker Carlson. Damn I hate that guy.
I hate Tucker Carlson too, but that's beside the point.

And what the fuck is the deal with that wall on the 49th?!
That is because we are all secretly jealous of Canada.

[americanman1468]

I do not mean any harm, I am only curious as to why people hate the USA. I myself live in Wilder Kentucky, recently moved from Dayton Ohio and im a citizen of the USA.

I want differnt views from you guys on why people hate the Unites States. My curisoity was spaked when I saw an artical in my paper describing kids in the public schools expressing their hatred towards the USA. The were prepared to burn the flag that hangs infront of their school building as well.

People in USA, express their hate for USA. WHY? If they hate it so much WHY dont they leave?

Terrorist hate us, WHY? Ive heard many reasons, but none of them were really well thought out. And i know some of you here can give well thought out opinions on why.

I mean, hasnt the USA always been looking out for other people? And trying to do what is right? Some people even go lengths on what "Doing whats right" means. What i think it means is saving peoples lives. And protecting those who are being stomped upon. And protecting our nation from Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Please dont go offtopic, and no insults pointed to anyone here. Thank you.

(Burning the USA flag IS ILLIGAL right?)we are free thay aint

[DumbGrunt]

we are free thay aint

Lol.

Is it possible to dislike American foreign policy and still like America/ns? Absolutely. It's sometimes easy to mistake someones poor grasp of English as hostility. Sometimes.

[Kak]

we are free thay aint
I'm pretty sure that is a joke account and joke post. I hope it is...

Also Lucky I find those stories of yours deeply disturbing, and I am very sorry my fellow countrymen behaved in such a manner.

Apparently you've had a lot of poor interactions with Americans like those. I know it's hard to not judge an entire group of people because of the acts of members of the groups you have seen, but I do wish that you would not condemn a nation of three hundred million people because of the actions of a very small portion of them, no matter how many of them and how different and diverse and representative these different people seemed to be.

[DumbGrunt]

Maybe "Why is America so scared / pissed off with / angry at the rest of the world" would be an interesting discussion.

[Daywalker]

we are free thay aint


ok, Mr. Bush.

[GoatChomper]

Maybe "Why is America so scared / pissed off with / angry at the rest of the world" would be an interesting discussion.
For those who mistake uninformed sloganeering as information, certainly. Titillation is always a seller to some.

[DumbGrunt]

The original question was "Why do people hate the USA" which makes as much sense as mine. Fair and balanced. Strange how the "haters" are never "us".

[GoatChomper]

The original question was "Why do people hate the USA" which makes as little sense as mine.
Correction cheerfully provided.

[DumbGrunt]

Same difference except I was being generous.

[Sibby]

Y'know, maybe this is just a look into the mind of one rather fucked up American citizen, but here's my thing. I've read more than just a little bit about some of the more sordid and/or ethically questionable things that the United States government has partaken in. And a lot of domestic issues, too, leave me sort of...cheated. (being gay and all, y'know)
I love my country though. I embrace it in spite of all this. I would [like to] serve my country to the farthest extent that would be asked of me, even if I did not agree with certain aspects of it. Certainly, if I see injustice and am in the position to attempt to correct it, I would try. Simply because I am loyal to my country does not mean that I would ignore it's various mistakes and wrong doings. However, I continue to be loyal despite things I disagree with. I still stand up for the national anthem, revere the flag, and even sometimes get teary-eyed at ceremonies. (Last Veteran's Day ceremony for example, aka Armistice Day or Remembrance Day for you Euro folks)

...So, yeah... Summary: Fuck politics.

[Dark Avatar]

Having grown up in the liberal capital of America (San Francisco), it seems to me that people hate America because it's the "cool" thing to do. Most of these people have never been outside of the country, or gone a day without their flush toilets, Starbucks, or the opposite gender, and know jack shit about how their forefathers sweat, bled, spent 13 weeks doing everything counted down by the numbers, fought, 'n died sacrificing the very freedom they sought to protect. Ask any of them why they hate Bush, and they'll say "duhh because he's stupid." Ask them if they're cool with burning the same legendary flag that the few Marines who survived the Battle of Iwo Jima to mount and rise, and they'll probably make an irrelevant quote from "Good Charlotte."

[lucky644]

I'm pretty sure that is a joke account and joke post. I hope it is...

Also Lucky I find those stories of yours deeply disturbing, and I am very sorry my fellow countrymen behaved in such a manner.

Apparently you've had a lot of poor interactions with Americans like those. I know it's hard to not judge an entire group of people because of the acts of members of the groups you have seen, but I do wish that you would not condemn a nation of three hundred million people because of the actions of a very small portion of them, no matter how many of them and how different and diverse and representative these different people seemed to be.

I'm not going to cry about it :p

I will admit, however, the americans I've met from WA on several occasions were quite nice, strangely enough, move one state over (ID) and it's a...strange transition...Yes I have been to America several times, for those who may think I haven't left the country before :p

[killerfluffy]

Having grown up in the liberal capital of America (San Francisco), it seems to me that people hate America because it's the "cool" thing to do. Most of these people have never been outside of the country, or gone a day without their flush toilets, Starbucks, or the opposite gender, and know jack shit about how their forefathers sweat, bled, spent 13 weeks doing everything counted down by the numbers, fought, 'n died sacrificing the very freedom they sought to protect. Ask any of them why they hate Bush, and they'll say "duhh because he's stupid." Ask them if they're cool with burning the same legendary flag that the few Marines who survived the Battle of Iwo Jima to mount and rise, and they'll probably make an irrelevant quote from "Good Charlotte."

Thank you for sharing your opinion Dark.

I feel that it is important for me to ask, what makes you so different from these "liberals". Do you have some resource completely unavailable to these people that gives you an insight into what their 'forefathers' went through to make this country what it is today? Do you have insight into the lives of the Irish that were spent like shillings to construct the railroads? How about the forefathers who made this country what it is today by actually taking a moment and raising their voices in disagreement their government. I can think of several important figures who made tremendous changes for the better in this country by speaking out against the practices of their government; Martin Luther King Jr., John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to name a few. I suppose these people all hated America too because they too spoke out against their government and sometimes opposed the actions it was taking.

You claim that its some kind of passing trend to hate America based on your experiences in San Francisco. You state quite clearly that if you were to ask a demonstrator if they're 'cool' with burning the American flag that they would quote some irrelevant quote from 'Good Charlotte'. While the quote from 'Good Charlotte' might seem irrelevant to you, you are not the litmus of the social leanings of this country. Might not your reverance for the "legendary flag" come from something that the average American might believe to be irrelevant. It might suprise you that people might associate the American flag more with the present government of the United States more so than they would associate it with the country itself. Perhaps their burning of the flag is showing a hate for the current adminstration and policy rather than a hatred of the country itself.

The 'liberals' have a right to freedom of expression and speech. Currently, it is still legal for someone to burn the flag of the United States, inside the United States. The only way to make flag burning illegal would be to pass an amendment specifically prohibitting the burning of the flag. Unfortunately for those who constantly feel the need to say that it is illegal, the amendment which was passed by the House of Representatives, still has not made its way through the Senate, and thus has not been ratified by any of the states; thus burning the flag in the United States is a legal action. Though some might find it distasteful, it is still a form of expression that is protected by the Bill of Rights.

I fail to see how your logic points out that hatred for America is some kind of passing trend. You cite the lack of experience 'without flush toilets, the opposite gender' or having 'never been outside of the country'. Experiencing life without the conveniences of modern technology does not make someone less aware of the history of their nation. Not going through the introduction to the Marine Corp, Army, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard does not make someone less knowledgeable about their nation or about what their forefather's did to ensure that this country is what it is today.

Your argument in no way shows that there is hatred for America, nor does it show that the hatred which you fail to show is there because it's 'cool'. So far all you've done is shown that you've devalued the opinion of your fellow citizen because their view differed from your own. Your post, while it is your opinion, proves very little and contributes very little to addressing the question of why people 'Hate America".

As for your reference to people hating Bush because "he's stupid"; I personally believe there are plenty of other good reasons to dislike the current President. Possibly his threat to veto the bill from Congress barring a company based in the Dubai from operating six major ports on the east coast of the United States, his flippant and condescending comments to the press and people of the United States, his poor diction and public presentation as well as his inability to seperate his religious beliefs and personal agenda from his duties as President of the United States; just look at Harriet Miers if you doubt that.

-e-
spelling

[Hocus Pocus]

i think other nations are pissed off at the U.S. mainly because we are THE world superpower at the moment. the U.S. foreign policy reflects it's economic interests. at the moment there really isn't another true superpower and the U.S. is at the center stage. Jealousy perhaps?

[killerfluffy]

i think other nations are pissed off at the U.S. mainly because we are THE world superpower at the moment.

While it is convenient to argue that the United States is the remaining world super power, I don't believe that is the reason our country is disliked as much as it is on the world stage.

the U.S. foreign policy reflects it's economic interests. at the moment there really isn't another true superpower and the U.S. is at the center stage.

I fail to see how a prolonged war in Iraq and Afganistahn with the potential for a third front in Iran is in the best economic interests of the country. As the war in Iraq continues to grow more unpopular on the home front, and the death toll continues to rise with no real changes occuring in the country that we, the American public, can see there are going to be more problems than benefits coming out of the prolonged engagement. If you have sources to back up your claims of our economic interest being served by fighting a 3 front war please share them with the rest of us. These were bad descisions, and most likely not in the economic best interets of the country.

Jealousy perhaps?

Jealousy of what? This country is amazing for its people to not notice as their rights are slowly stripped away from them in the name of 'safety' and 'security'. Our education is third rate, over thirty million of our citizens live in poverty, our ability to take care of our own poor is non-existent. Corporations spend millions of dollars to influence politicians to pass legislation that does little good for the common man, and we sit idly by. A good example is the RIAA/MPAA fighting for legislation that banned any technology which could circumvent the copy-protection technology that was being used at the time. This means that in the early part of this century it was illegal to possess a Sharpy marker, because if you knew where to draw a line you could circumvent the copy-protection of compact discs and dvds. Did you also know that our country is about to start falling rapidly behind other nations in terms of scientific discoveries because our executive branch is unable to divorce its Christian morality from its civic duty? By this I mean the restrictions being placed on stem cell research, which has the potential for amazing breakthroughs in a number of important fields dealing with diseases that are at this moment considered terminal.

[Dark Avatar]

I don't hate liberals or conservatives or Nazis or Zionists or anything of the sort, just their mindless followers. I know a good share of liberals who know their stuff and can back their opinion to whatever necessary extent, and I have nothing against them or their opinion.

I was addressing why it has become common without reason for Americans to hate America and those that show any love for it, not why outsiders hate America, not why people have criticisms of the government (which they should, as without them the government cannot better itself). Really, the question of why people hate America is broad in its ways of being interpreted, and "hating the USA" is unspecific itself as it does not specify whether the thread creator was referring to people who hate the government, people who hate the people, people who hate the current state of conditions and wish to better them, or some other direction or combination of discontents. I took the initiative to assume he was referring to the trend-like shock of reaction to anyone who supports Bush, or openly says they love this country. You seem to misinterpret my post as some right-wing rambling against liberals, which it is not, but a bashing of the close-mindedness to any sort of patriotism which I have seen all of my life.

[Hocus Pocus]

i was being a bit sarcastic there. its quite obvious that fighting on two fronts is risky and expensive, overall i'd say Iraqi oil deals dont add up to the lives of 2,000 U.S. soildiers, tens of thousands of Iraqis and 200 billion dollars.

[GoatChomper]

Jealousy of what?
Ask some of the many immigrants who are voting with their feet.

[Noirceur]

Ask some of the many immigrants who are voting with their feet.
Well in comparing Mexico to the U.S., the U.S. surely has more peoples' rights. But what then can the U.S. be compared to? I don't think every person in every other country looks up to us. There is a certain point where the definition of "the rights of the people" starts to infringe on the rights of other people.

[Noirceur]

People are just jealous of America. Everyone wishes they were us, and they hate us. Even the Muslims. I laughed everytime I saw an insurgent fire at us wearing a Nike cap... or everytime we apprehended someone wearing Levi's. Our prisoners emrboidered their jump suits with ADIDAS logos.... it's funny because they hate us so much, but envy our lifestyle to the point that you feel pity for them.
I think you generalize just a little too much. That is maybe a small sect of the problem, if it is any of the actual problem. No one puts their life on the line for jealousy.

[pro kossu]

People are just jealous of America. Everyone wishes they were us, and they hate us. Even the Muslims. I laughed everytime I saw an insurgent fire at us wearing a Nike cap... or everytime we apprehended someone wearing Levi's. Our prisoners emrboidered their jump suits with ADIDAS logos.... it's funny because they hate us so much, but envy our lifestyle to the point that you feel pity for them.

So that must be why there's anti Switzerland and Norway demonstrations around the globe every day. The images of burning cod and cuckoo clocks on our tv-screens...

Wait, no. That's strange, cause both countries have higher living standards than the US of A.

[Discobird]

It's not just our standard of living, people are jealous of our political pull and military might.
Why do you keep bringing up jealousy? Are you really so cynical as to think that all foreigners who believe America misuses its power, secretly wish they had that power for themselves? And if you think so, what evidence do you have for this?

[Modest Genius]

Switzerland and Norway couldn't conquer Gibraltartbh, given the local geography, high military and naval presence and the strong nationalism of the inhabitants, oh and the ease of smuggling things to and from Spain, I think the US would have a pretty hard time of taking and holfing Gibraltar too.

btw, just because someone wishes they had as much power/money/military might as someone else doesnt necessarily mean that would drive them to hatred. respect, admiration, envy, and jealousy are all different to hatred

[LSky]

It's human nature. Envy is undeniable. People are always jealous of those that possess more. It's a drive behind society. It's common law, those that don't have the power, want the power. Those that have the power, use it. I mean seriously, there's no country in the world that doesn't wish it had the clout that America does, and I don't care what any of you say against that, you know it's true. Everyone wants to be the big dog in the pound.That sounds stupid and ignorant. Just because the US is misuses its power doesn't mean the rest of the world would really like to do the same. Maybe everyone wants to have power, but not everyone would misuse it like this government does.

[StandingCow]

That sounds stupid and ignorant. Just because the US is misuses its power doesn't mean the rest of the world would really like to do the same. Maybe everyone wants to have power, but not everyone would misuse it like this government does.

How do you know? Name one superpower in history that didnt USE said power.

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely"

[Modest Genius]

Name one superpower in history that didnt USE said power.Byzantines. spent all their time scheming and bickering amoungst themselves, and schisming, rather than putting their power into use

your point still stands mind