Weapons: If pepper spray sprays peppers...

[akodo]

Then what does Bear Spray spray? Pocket Grizzlies?

Actually i bring this up because i was reading a mystery novel from an author that i like because he has been consistently very accurate with the firearms he has introduced into his story, (as poor firearms stuff can make an otherwise realistic story seem much less so) plus he is a pretty good writer. the main 'detective' is a game warden on wyoming just outside yellowstone.

Anyways the guy is investigating a dead moose which will of course eventually lead to something else. There is also a rogue grizzly who has been causing trouble in the area, so he brings bear spray, which is described as being like pepper spray but significantly more powerful, in a canister that holds a hell of a lot more and can spray further.

So i did some internet checking. yup, bearspray canisters hold a lot more and talk about much farther distances. Now, i also know that it is hard to compare different brands of pepper spray because while they may report %OC, but that not all OC is equally hot because it is made from peppers, which are not uniformly hot. However, many brag about '5%' of OC 'from the hottest Caspianms' or whatever.

Anyways, I also see that some states limit the max percent of OC for 'civilians' some as low as 2% and others at 10% The bear sprays i have been seeing are listing 20%s and 25%s, which would seem to indicate taht they are in deed more powerful. Maybe not 10X as powerful (unless you factor in the greater volume of spray available)

Anyways, while sprays and other 'less lethal' devices have a whole set of problems all their own, there is that old saying 'if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, then every problem starts to look like a nail'. There are times when brandishing pepperspray will cause a lot less problems than brandishing a firearm etc etc.

It seems to me that if you are going to be having a spray in your glovebox or wherever, skip the stuff meant to stop humans, and go for the stuff meant to stop grizzlies! (i also wonder if this gets around some of the requirements like in NY uou can only get pepper spray from FFLs or pharmacies)

[Gumpokc]

Then what does Bear Spray spray? Pocket Grizzlies?


It seems to me that if you are going to be having a spray in your glovebox or wherever, skip the stuff meant to stop humans, and go for the stuff meant to stop grizzlies! (i also wonder if this gets around some of the requirements like in NY uou can only get pepper spray from FFLs or pharmacies)


I can see and understand what your getting at, but honestly, it would hurt you more than help you.

#1 UNless you order over the "net" just where in , lets say for example, florida are you goign to find pepper spray for grizzlies??

#2 dead men tell no tales, live ones cause more problems, especially in this era of legislative bullshit. first he'll nail your ass for using "grizzly" spray on him, then he'll go after the manufacturer for allowing open purchase of the product ment for animal usage only.

#3 he'd come back with " state/federal law only allows private usage of such a product when under XXX concentration, this was way higher, and he'd be able to sucessfully argue that you intentionally and in a premeditated manner choose to misuse a product to specifically cause additional injury, pain and suffering to any person you decided you use it on.

now if you could come up with a _good_ reason to have it handy, then you could claim it was the first thing that came to hand, and thats what you used to defend yourself, however being in the middle of a city is not going to be the easiest place to pass off that argument. If you lived in yellowstone maybe, NYC noway.

Suire the asshole maybe deserve it, but nowdays, the criminals have more rights than anyone else, and whats worse, is that they are learning exactly how to use that against you as well.

[Kak]

People use a lot less restraint with spray compared with firearms. I have heard about people using pepper spray on people for pretty lame reasons. You could probably really fuck someone up with something meant for bears.

The less lethal devices we already have now, the ones made for use against humans, already do a well enough job for their intended purpose.

[Mr.P]

Interesting story for ya'll as to the effectiveness of certain "heat" levels.

Trying to recall from various Gall's catelogs and such, and from some quick research I just did. A 5% cap spray clocks in at around 1 million Scoville units of heat, basically both measurements go to showing the percentage of pure capsicum in the solution. While they make higher concentrations, 5% is pretty hardcore still.

Anyways, back to my acutal story. My old roommate loves spicy food so for his birthday I bought him a bottle of this stuff called Mad Dog's Revenge. Its 1 million scoville haberno extract. So, basically, 5% cap spray in food additive form. It arrived in the mail, and I told him VERY specifically don't try it until I get an eye dropper one the way back home from work that night. I come home at 9:30ish, and find him in his room moaning, and not in a drunk girl over for the night way. Dumbass made himself a bowl of ramen noodles and figured he could just pour a small drop into the bowl. It wound up burning so bad that he started coughing and sweating really bad and went to go take his contacts out to go lay down. Didn't wash his hands off, and still had some on his finger tips. So, in essense, he basically applied 5% cap pepper spray DIRECTLY TO HIS EYES.

Stuff is great though, literally 2-3 drops in a huge vat of chili gives it some good heat.

[meifunk]

We carry OC Pepper Spray (Oleoresin Capsaicin) in the CG. IIRC, it's 15% OC, 85% Inert (water). It's about 3,000,000 SHUs, and will knock most people down.

Bear Spray is generally 20-25%, and is more likely to piss a bear off than make it run.

As for spraying people? Well, if it's going to be made legal to carry, people should have to be sprayed with it before they can carry it. That's the CGs Policy on OC. Works pretty well, I'd rather put someone down than spray them. It'd be easier on them and me.

Legal ramifications: You better have a damn good reason to have sprayed someone, and they had better have been a threat to you. After you spray them, you better stay there until aid arrives to fix them up, because if they have a reaction to the OC (some people do, it ain't pretty) you ARE responsibile, even if they were the agressor.

As for using Bear Spray on a human? Although it's really not that much of a difference in OC concentration, you'd get nailed to the cross for using something that wasn't designed for humans.

[GoatChomper]

As for spraying people? Well, if it's going to be made legal to carry, people should have to be sprayed with it before they can carry it.
Comes suspiciously close to a requirement that any police officer who carries a baton has to be struck with it before being allowed. Pass.
That's the CGs Policy on OC.
Remember that USCG personnel, being in the LEO business, are more restricted in the use of force than a layman such as I.

[Mr.P]

Remember that USCG personnel, being in the LEO business, are more restricted in the use of force than a layman such as I.

Yeppers, people in a position of authority are forced to use more restraint. Same reason that terrorists can use road side bombs against our troops, but we couldn't do the same. Well, we COULD....but you get the idea.....

[Wallrod]

I distinctly remember a story, either here or on another forum about someone's buddy using bear spray on somebody that got far too agressive with them in a gun range car park... he went down like a screaming sack of rocks and his friends had to carry him into a car and jet off. Anyone else remember something similar?

[Milkman Dan]

Comes suspiciously close to a requirement that any police officer who carries a baton has to be struck with it before being allowed. Pass.
I never quite understood that requirement for police officers. Why is it they have to be maced/tasered before they can use it? Is it to help desensitize themselves to it, because I'm pretty sure a cop will still go down if he's tased or maced.

[Elwood]

Bear spray is rough shit. It will wreck you. The kind I use, "counter assault", says right on the can it'll cause blindness when used on humans. That's no good. I got it on my skin last year in a freak accident, and it damn near put me out for a few hours just covering a three-inch circle on my side. It was like the worst sunburn I've ever had for three days straight.

[GrosPoisson]

No, it's a liability thing. Cops get pepper sprayed themselves so they can use the argument that "I know what it's like to pepper sprayed, so the reason I used it on Joe Scumbag Criminal here was because I felt the situation warranted the use of something that would cause that much pain."

[Milkman Dan]

I found all kinds of self-defense items on this website: http://www.tbotech.com/

They have this 2 million scoville pepper spray (http://www.tbotech.com/wildfire.htm). Says it incapacitates people for 45 minutes.

[meifunk]

No, it's a liability thing. Cops get pepper sprayed themselves so they can use the argument that "I know what it's like to pepper sprayed, so the reason I used it on Joe Scumbag Criminal here was because I felt the situation warranted the use of something that would cause that much pain."

QFE

Also, we're taught how to cope with the effects, and take charge of the situation even after being sprayed. We fight off two aggressors, (one runs) and the other you continue to fend off until you draw your weapon on him and restrain him.

In a Law Enforcement role, if you use this you're probably going to have to testify and explain yourself.

Self-defense/civilian... I'd say you're at least naive if you think that just because you did it out of self-defense, you're off the hook. Yeah, your case will probably be a lot easier to make, but you'd better be damn sure to make him/her look like a real asshole that was out to hurt you. And clearly had an advantage on you. Remember, lawsuits are ridiculous these days. Pepper Spray is fairly controversial, too. Same with tazers.

And for the record, 45 minutes is bogus. For one, it's variable per person. It doesn't even work on all individuals, this I've seen. I was a little bleary for about 15 minutes or so afterward, and then I went home and slept.

Oh yeah, and to use collapsible batons, we dress up in big padded suits and hit each other with training batons and learn swings and all that good stuff. Good training.

[Milkman Dan]

And for the record, 45 minutes is bogus. For one, it's variable per person. It doesn't even work on all individuals, this I've seen. I was a little bleary for about 15 minutes or so afterward, and then I went home and slept.
Was it 15% OC?

[meifunk]

Yes. When we do training excersizes with it, we do not spare the real stuff for some watered down version. It's the same stuff we carry. Can says 3,000,000 SHU. Mileage may vary.

One of the guys I sprayed for training just stood there and opened his eyes. It took a full 15 seconds and two sprays to make it have an effect, and even then it was negligible.