With the aftermath of the hurricane disaster...

[Gunstar9]

im suprised there isnt a big international movent to help the people in New Orleans. I mean there was a big aid movement for the tsunamia and the Earthquake in BAM Iran. :(

[ScAvenger001]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-31-katrina-world_x.htm

[GusButts]

Major car companies helped with... car payments, many other companies donated millions of dollars to Red Cross and such to help.

[Gunstar9]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-31-katrina-world_x.htm


thank god. i was looking at CNN and stuff, it didnt mention much bout international aid.

[Ch33zy]

Probably because the south is devestard almost every year by hurricanes.

[Modest Genius]

possibly because, unlike bam or aceh or darfur, the US is capable both financially and in terms of infrastructure of helping itself.

can you just imagine french troops turning up to search through the wreckage? would the US really let them do it?

besides, floods of similar magnitude happen on a regular basis in bangladesh and other monsoon-afflicted countries, they just dont get the same blanket media coverage

as an aside, im baffled as to why almost all (even non US) news agencies are putting new orleans first on their reports, and baghdad second, despite the fact that more lives have been lost and there is more political consequence in baghdad

[GusButts]

Because Katrina is fresh and more interesting at this very moment, I guess.

[Supplanter]

I'm just watching our local news and they said that our urban search & rescue team, http://www.can-tf1.org/index.html ,is flying down to Louisiana tonight to help out.

[Kak]

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2367210&PageNum=0
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2363813&PageNum=0

[[Political] Slayer]

possibly because, unlike bam or aceh or darfur, the US is capable both financially and in terms of infrastructure of helping itself.

can you just imagine french troops turning up to search through the wreckage? would the US really let them do it?

besides, floods of similar magnitude happen on a regular basis in bangladesh and other monsoon-afflicted countries, they just dont get the same blanket media coverage

as an aside, im baffled as to why almost all (even non US) news agencies are putting new orleans first on their reports, and baghdad second, despite the fact that more lives have been lost and there is more political consequence in baghdad
Well, let's see... Maybe because Bagdhad isn't completely under water and facing the possibly of being completly destroyed?

[Repent]

Probably because the south is devestard almost every year by hurricanes.
Not like this...ever.

[Lord Kelvin]

I think the main reason is because, like everybody said, the US can take care of itself in most cases. Yes, this hurricane was very bad, but there have been incidents that might/might not have been worse. For example, there was that one earthquake back a few decades or so (I don't know the exact date). And this isn't the first time a city's been looted when something bad happened (like NYC 1977 IIRC).

[Kak]

I think it's kind of a pride issue too. Kind of like we think we're so great and powerfull, we're not going to accept help on a strictly domestic issue.

[Grunt]

Islamic extremists rejoiced in America's misfortune, giving the storm a military rank and declaring in Internet chatter that "Private" Katrina had joined the global jihad, or holy war. With "God's help," they declared, oil prices would hit $100 a barrel this year.


I loled.

Anyway, US dosen't really need help a less fortunate country. We have the man power and technology to rebuild farily quickly; the things the US does need are supplys mostly, not man power and money (money would be used to pay for supplys, I think)

[Agent Law]

Not like this...ever.
IIRC, this is like the fifth time a class 5 hurricane has hit the states.

[Grunt]

The most damaging hurricane hit Texas in 1900, killing 6,000+.

[puke o'hara]

as an aside, im baffled as to why almost all (even non US) news agencies are putting new orleans first on their reports, and baghdad second, despite the fact that more lives have been lost and there is more political consequence in baghdadIf one looks at humanitarian concerns, the whole thing with the hurricane affects the lives of far more people directly or indirectly thanks to the extensive material destruction - and the bodycount can rise too. As for political ramfications, the economic effects might be larger here too.

[Captain Colon]

IIRC, this is like the fifth time a class 5 hurricane has hit the states.
Yeah but how many of those completely destroyed a major city turning it into a giant septic tank and caused gas prices to jump 20% overnight?

(It was a category 4 when it made landfall anyway)

[kreket]

Speaking of economic effects, Hugo Chavez offered the US special discount rates on oil the other day. This in order to put the price of oil down. I heard the oil price would increase not because of the cost of unrefined oil, but because of a destruction of US refineries. So even if Chavez were to follow up on his promise, it would do little effect on the price of oil in the end (with the exception of severely lowered income for Venezuela itself). The insurance industry will get hit, too.

How big could this get in terms of casualties? There are stories of people trapped on the roof and in the attic of their buildings.

[Daywalker]

How big could this get in terms of casualties? There are stories of people trapped on the roof and in the attic of their buildings.

It could hit thousands, from reports I've heard.

[Milkman Dan]

The most damaging hurricane hit Texas in 1900, killing 6,000+.
I wouldn't be surprised if the aftermath of Katrina surpassed that. Nagin said the death toll for New Orleans is probably in the thousands. The city has been completely shut down, they actually ordered a full evacuation. New Orleans and surrounding areas have sewers that have flooded over. Disease just might end up killing a lot more people. The entire situation just doesn't really work in New Orlean's favor right now, or any city ravaged by Katrina.

Speaking of economic effects, Hugo Chavez offered the US special discount rates on oil the other day. This in order to put the price of oil down. I heard the oil price would increase not because of the cost of unrefined oil, but because of a destruction of US refineries.
Hugo didn't also pass up on the chance to kick USA while it was down. Talk about adding insult to injury. I guess he felt entitled to it since he was "doing us a favor".

as an aside, im baffled as to why almost all (even non US) news agencies are putting new orleans first on their reports, and baghdad second, despite the fact that more lives have been lost and there is more political consequence in baghdad
Humanitarian issues on a massive scale tend to take precedence over most things, especially when it's as "old news" as the war in Iraq. Not everything has to be related to politics to be important or interesting to the global community.

[Evil Superstar]

im suprised there isnt a big international movent to help the people in New Orleans. I mean there was a big aid movement for the tsunamia and the Earthquake in BAM Iran. :(

I've read in a local newspaper that our Foreign minister has offered to help out, but that so far the US hasn't asked for any help and so far declined any offers for help.

[Loké]

possibly because, unlike bam or aceh or darfur, the US is capable both financially and in terms of infrastructure of helping itself.
QFE

As for the coverage, it's more increduality Modest; how can the worlds richest country get kicked in the balls so hard by a storm that they KNEW was coming?
Apparent answer: Ignoring warnings about poor flood defences and using the cash for said defences for the 'war' on 'terror'

[Kak]

Those links I posted sometimes work and sometimes don't, so I thought I'd copy and paste the text inside:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has sent a message of condolence to his US counterpart George Bush over hurricane Katrina that inflicted significant casualties and destructions, the Russian presidential press service said on Tuesday.

“Please, accept the most sincere words of sympathy over the natural disaster that affected the United States. I know that hurricane Katrina that hit the US south-western coast led to casualties, left homeless dozens of thousands of US citizens and inflicted a strong damage to the economy of this region. I ask you to convey my condolences to the next of kin of those killed,” Putin said in the message.

Putin also noted that Russia sincerely sympathizes with US citizens who faced an enormous catastrophe and is ready to give them necessary assistance.


and

The Russian Emergency Situations Ministry has offered assistance in holding search and rescue operations in areas of the United States affected by the hurricane Katrina.

An adviser to the Russian emergency situations minister, Viktor Beltsov has said two Ilyushin-76TD transport planes are ready to leave the Ramenskoye airdrome any time. They carry rescue workers, light helicopters and other equipment essential to effective operation in disaster areas.


Anyways yes this is a huge disaster, but despite what that mayor said, I really can't see the death toll going above 1000, and if it does, not that far above 1000.

It is really sad to watch the families on TV talking about losing a loved one, like that one african-american man walking with his two sons going up to a reporter and telling her while crying that he lost his wife and his house and that's all he had and has nowhere to go. The reporter started crying too :(

[puke o'hara]

Hugo didn't also pass up on the chance to kick USA while it was down. Talk about adding insult to injury. I guess he felt entitled to it since he was "doing us a favor".How would decreasing the price of oil exports to USA, a net importer of oil, "kick USA while it was down"?

[Captain Colon]

We need refineries to process the oil we have, not cheaper oil :\


Apparently this could end up being a fairly large economic disaster for the country as a whole: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050901/ts_washpost/critical_u_s__supply_line_is_disrupted

[puke o'hara]

Perhaps, but an empty gesture isn't necessarily a hostile one.

[`tek]

No clue on how many class 3 / 4 / 5 hurricanes have hit the U.S, but I'm fairley certian this one will cause the most destruction. New Orleans is below sea level and water will continue to sit on top of the city until the government can figure a way to pump the water back out to sea and keep it from washing back in. Three to four months with out utilities for the win?

Hospitals are out of food, electricity, and other supplies. I heard on WGNradio today that c-sections had been performed using local anesthetics *SP* only. People have lost thier homes, thier jobs, their family members and are trapped in a city in which they cannont escape.

Looters are scarring away rescue attempts by flocking to heli-ports and runways taking pot shots at rescue choppers and blocking runways.

Sewage + dead bodies + oil = disease

Terrible situation.

[Modest Genius]

As for the coverage, it's more increduality Modest; how can the worlds richest country get kicked in the balls so hard by a storm that they KNEW was coming?
Apparent answer: Ignoring warnings about poor flood defences and using the cash for said defences for the 'war' on 'terror'
good point

also, theres the issue with the national guard. usually, they would be the ones to clean up these sort of messes, but half of the local forces are off in iraq. and the DoD hasnt even allowed the refugees to use the uninhabited barracks.

[Milkman Dan]

How would decreasing the price of oil exports to USA, a net importer of oil, "kick USA while it was down"?
Did you not read the comments he made towards America about our response to the hurricane?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1474507/posts

[GoatChomper]

good point
No.....vapid point. What are you going to do with a low-lying area, use all that money to put the entire southern half of the state up on stilts?

[Milkman Dan]

QFE

As for the coverage, it's more increduality Modest; how can the worlds richest country get kicked in the balls so hard by a storm that they KNEW was coming?
Apparent answer: Ignoring warnings about poor flood defences and using the cash for said defences for the 'war' on 'terror'
Except State money would be spent on improving alleged "poor flood defences", not Federal funds. You could argue that more money could've been diverted from HLS (Homeland Security) to have a project to improve those "poor defences". I guess that would also contradict your point about too much money being spent on terror, since HLS was the byproduct of that.

New Orleans was said to have a rather complex drainage system. I don't think all the money in the world could've built flood defences for such a powerful hurricane. Surge walls, and other protection that would be have to built on the beach would probably have angered citizens since they are not aeshetically pleasing. It's all seems reasonable now, but that's the great thing about hindsight.

[Modest Genius]

No.....vapid point. What are you going to do with a low-lying area, use all that money to put the entire southern half of the state up on stilts?perhaps put in a dyke/levee/whatever its called that can actually withstand a huricane? that area of the world being somewhat prone to them was a clue

[[Political] Slayer]

it could withstand a hurricane, only a catagory 3 one though.

[siddy]

I just really want to know why the hell it's taking so long to get everyone out of New Orleans.

If it were terrorists trying to take out the people trying to rescue the people of new orleans, i think it might have been done by now.

How the hell can the biggest super power in the world not be able to help their own people? this administration fell flat on its face.

[M123]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8CC4CM80.htm?campaign_id=apn_home_down&chan=db
European nations are offering to provide oil to the United States from their strategic reserves to offset shortages in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, an EU official said Friday.

Separately, the EU executive Commission in Brussels said it has offered disaster help to U.S. authorities trying to cope with the damage caused by the storm, which lashed New Orleans and coastal towns in Mississippi, causing massive flooding.

Speaking on Britain's Sky News network, EU security affairs chief Javier Solana said the U.S. administration has approached several EU member states individually for help. "Whatever they ask for, it will be given from the reserves of oil that the different (EU) countries are providing," he said.
...
The EU foreign ministers, meeting Friday in Newport, Wales, also discussed humanitarian help for victims of Hurricane Katrina. EU spokeswoman Francoise Le Bail said in Brussels several EU nations were ready to help with specialists in areas such as water supply and mobile shelters, if requested by the U.S.

She said the EU had not yet received any U.S. request for help.

[Ch33zy]

I just really want to know why the hell it's taking so long to get everyone out of New Orleans.

If it were terrorists trying to take out the people trying to rescue the people of new orleans, i think it might have been done by now.

How the hell can the biggest super power in the world not be able to help their own people? this administration fell flat on its face.

The people there are the ones who didn't heed the warnings in the first place, and therefore, arn't the brightest around. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[puke o'hara]

Yes, since everyone has the means to leave the place and somewhere to go to.

[siddy]

The people there are the ones who didn't heed the warnings in the first place, and therefore, arn't the brightest around. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

...and they have the money to afford going somewhere.

the poor were the ones who were left...they live paycheck to paycheck...how are you supposed to afford to leave when you have no money? how can you afford to leave with 4 children with no money?

[Modest Genius]

The people there are the ones who didn't heed the warnings in the first place, and therefore, arn't the brightest around. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.right, so the ones who cant afford a car, dont have anywhere to go, or are physically incapable of travel are all that way because theyre stupid, right?

the reason theyre still there is because noone bussed them out, and noone provided shelters for them to go to, not because theyre too stupid to realise hurricanes are bad news for a city built between and underneath three major water sources

[Krispy Joe]

the reason theyre still there is because noone bussed them out, and noone provided shelters for them to go to, not because theyre too stupid to realise hurricanes are bad news for a city built between and underneath three major water sources


...or maybe because the Highway 10 Bridge was completely fucked and rescue convoys have come under fire might have something to do with it, but actually, you're probably right, America is just stupid.



:rolleyes:

[GoatChomper]

perhaps put in a dyke/levee/whatever its called that can actually withstand a huricane?
They did withstand it.....it was the amount of water that broke them.

[mastablasta]

...or maybe because the Highway 10 Bridge was completely fucked and rescue convoys have come under fire might have something to do with it, but actually, you're probably right, America is just stupid.



:rolleyes:


shouldn't they pull them out before the highest level storm? or shouldn't they at least have a backup evacuation plan ready and troops on stand by near the area, possibly with some vehicles who can go over watter?

how come there was no looting or shooting on rescuers when Germany got flooded? how come when Aceh was devastated by earthquake and tsunami the GAM rebels even put down their weapons so people could be helped??? and peopel there actually helped eachother not rape, murder and try to chase away the rescue teams.

[lucid]

Sri Lanka donated $12,000, that's all they could afford. :(

[mastablasta]

right, so the ones who cant afford a car, dont have anywhere to go, or are physically incapable of travel are all that way because theyre stupid, right?

the reason theyre still there is because noone bussed them out, and noone provided shelters for them to go to, not because theyre too stupid to realise hurricanes are bad news for a city built between and underneath three major water sources


yes it's seems these are poor people, who couldn't afford hotel rooms and didn't have any relatives living outside of the area hit by the hurricane. but what US government should have done when alarm was raised is get some shellters ready ahead of this. they could have been containers or larger tents...

ever thought about dropping the food and watter from air from large airplanes? no. they were waiting for watter level to drop, so they can roll in. bad idea, because relief was very late.

[Violin]

Look, its obvious the government really didnt see this coming. They didnt not expect the enemy to be wheather. They expect it to be people with guns. This was a very new experience because of the magnitude of this storm. They will learn from this, and things will be better. With the odd wheather patterns happening lately, i fear this is not the worst we will see.

[Ch33zy]

yes it's seems these are poor people, who couldn't afford hotel rooms and didn't have any relatives living outside of the area hit by the hurricane. but what US government should have done when alarm was raised is get some shellters ready ahead of this. they could have been containers or larger tents...

ever thought about dropping the food and watter from air from large airplanes? no. they were waiting for watter level to drop, so they can roll in. bad idea, because relief was very late.

So... You suggest scattering supplies all over the place? Somehow, that sounds like a bad idea. As for setting up shelters, while smart, disaster preparedness has a way of being shoved under the rug in favor of hot ticket topics. Until, at least, it becomse a big topic, and which point everyone gets thier "I told ya so!" in and blames everyone else for not doing anything.

[puke o'hara]

...or maybe because the Highway 10 Bridge was completely fucked and rescue convoys have come under fire might have something to do with it, but actually, you're probably right, America is just stupid.



:rolleyes:I'd assume the bridge was fucked during or after the hurricane, not before it, and thus the no doubt tragic state of affairs would not have affected getting the people out there who couldn't remove themselves from the city - likewise with the shooting.

And did the rescue convoys carry shelter from the flooding with them? Impressive.

[siddy]

rescue convoys have come under fire might have something to do with it, but actually, you're probably right, America is just stupid.



:rolleyes:

if it were terrorists firing at the convoys New Orleans would have already been conquored.

[Chris R]

if it were terrorists firing at the convoys New Orleans would have already been conquored.
There's a difference in dealing with foreign terrorists and US citizens.

[Krispy Joe]

if it were terrorists firing at the convoys New Orleans would have already been conquored.



No, not terrorists, just looters and drug addicts.



Just think about it. Right now, NO is in a state of lawlessness, perfect looting conditions. There is a very small percentage of people who would like to loot as much as they can, and they will do anything possible to prolong their "window of operation" per se. This includes, but is not limited to: Shooting at hospitals, firing on non-military rescue convoys/helicopters, and raping women to promote an aura of chaos. Of course, there is also the crackheads who are armed and will shoot anything that moves.


Also, just sayin': My school was able to donate about $20,000. GJ Sri Lanka ;)



Also Also! I wish these hollywood types would STFU. Have they ever tried to coordinate a massive relief efoort admist violence, chaos, flooding, fear and loathing in a city of thousands? no, they haven't. Yes, Kayne West, I'm looking at YOU!

[siddy]

There's a difference in dealing with foreign terrorists and US citizens.

i thought some forum goers were supporting a shoot-to-kill policy anyway.

[Modest Genius]

They did withstand it.....it was the amount of water that broke them.in my book, rain from a huricane counts as part of the huricane
...or maybe because the Highway 10 Bridge was completely fucked and rescue convoys have come under fire might have something to do with it, but actually, you're probably right, America is just stupid.i meant BEFORE it hit :rolleyes:
Look, its obvious the government really didnt see this coming. They didnt not expect the enemy to be wheather. They expect it to be people with guns. This was a very new experience because of the magnitude of this storm. They will learn from this, and things will be better. With the odd wheather patterns happening lately, i fear this is not the worst we will see.too true. the first aid packages in contained drugs for fighting anthrax, because thats what the plans called for

and the point is, someone SHOULD have been prepared. there have been countless predictions and warnings of this, yet noone prepared

[Bone_Vulture]

im suprised there isnt a big international movent to help the people in New Orleans. I mean there was a big aid movement for the tsunamia and the Earthquake in BAM Iran. :(

Because like just about everybody else, I thought that the cavalry would roll in by Thursday the latest, considering that this is the world's only supposed superpower we're speaking of. And when I read the news of escalating chaos on Saturday morning, all I could think of was "why can't the situation be brought under control"?

Christ. Uhm, if I listened to the radio correctly, three specialists and a group of thirty relief workers are ready to be dispatched from Finland, should we be invoked.

[mastablasta]

and what if the watter would simply rise from normal rain and some terrorist would broke the barrier protecting the city?

some much for the readiness. the thing is that there were warnings, they knew the level of huricane intesity and even huge number of people were evacuated prior to the chaos. so someone should have made a plan.

this is something totally different then my country had two weeks ago, when no one was warned about heavy rain. roads were torn off (in some parts a few hunder meters of road dissapeared), electricity and phone lines were cut, mudslides burried a few houses, one of the bigger rivers was rising...

All they could do is strengthern the barrer and create a few new ones. and guess what no one was shooting on them. people were helping eachother...

[marty]

The people there are the ones who didn't heed the warnings in the first place, and therefore, arn't the brightest around. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
I've been reading this thread seething with anger at the ignorance abound.

This one takes the cake.

Fuck you.

You are a fucking insensitive, callous, shithead.

Do you think the people that stayed behind had the means to leave? No, they didn't. They were the poorest of the area, who lived from paycheck to paycheck.

Notice the date the hurricane devestated them? Yup. Right before payday.

[marty]

Except State money would be spent on improving alleged "poor flood defences", not Federal funds. Not so. Those levees were funded and constructed by the Army Corps of Engineers. They even had a debate recently (~5 or less years ago) about upgrading them. They were initially designed to withstand a Category 3 hurricane, and they wanted to make them take up to a Category 5. After a cost/benefit analysis, they determined that it wasn't worth it. Oh hindsight really makes one want to shoot one's self.

[marty]

The shitty thing about all this is that our National Pride (TM) is getting in the way of the people's needs. We've rejected aid (as in, emergency workers and equipment) from Canada, Jamaica, and all sorts of countries.

I applaud Anderson Cooper and Kanye West (yes, him). Fucking politicians are shitting on the southerners right now. I don't know why, but I couldn't help but get angry when Bush started to compliment Houston on its efforts (commendable, but they* fucked up enough times that it overshadows the great act of loaning the Astrodome to the refugees)


*"they" should not be confused for the great people of Houston, but the government workers who are in charge of the refugee centers in the area

[Chris R]

i thought some forum goers were supporting a shoot-to-kill policy anyway.
Well, if the looters are firing at the Police/National Guard members, are not responding to commands to cease their actions, or are becoming overly violent, I agree. I'm just saying that we can't treat this like a terrorist incident and go in guns a blazing. While they are doing some pretty dumb shit, they're still American citizens.


On the issue of the government's response, where the hell have the mayor and state governor been? If I remember, after 9/11 the government told cities to have plans in case of emeregencies, did NO have any of these, especially to deal with the individuals who used mass transit and therefore could not leave on their own? I've noticed that in other areas, there hasn't been a lot of reports of looting (correct me if I'm wrong) and the people in charge there have stepped up to the plate to do their job. Sure, the government could of had a plan in place too, but the governor and mayor should also be held responsible for this mess.

[Daywalker]

Not so. Those levees were funded and constructed by the Army Corps of Engineers. They even had a debate recently (~5 or less years ago) about upgrading them. They were initially designed to withstand a Category 3 hurricane, and they wanted to make them take up to a Category 5. After a cost/benefit analysis, they determined that it wasn't worth it. Oh hindsight really makes one want to shoot one's self.


Its the gov't, people have to die for things to get done. Just look at the roads, there are intersections that have tons of accidents, but it takes fatalities for them to do something about it.

[GoatChomper]

or shouldn't they at least have a backup evacuation plan ready and troops on stand by near the area, possibly with some vehicles who can go over watter?
And if the hurricane had veered toward another area, these units would have been in the wrong location. You can predict hurricane landfall, but not with certainty.
how come there was no looting or shooting on rescuers when Germany got flooded?
Because it didn't get flooded to this extent.
.....but what US government should have done when alarm was raised is get some shellters ready ahead of this. they could have been containers or larger tents...
As has been pointed out already.....getting items where they're needed is an incredibly difficult job when roads are out and debris blocks routes.
ever thought about dropping the food and watter from air from large airplanes? no.
And watch it float away.
Because like just about everybody else, I thought that the cavalry would roll in by Thursday the latest, considering that this is the world's only supposed superpower we're speaking of.
Yeah, we forgot the batteries for the devices that make blocked roads clear instantly and washed-out bridges repair themselves.

I just love how so many of you who've never been any closer to a hurricane than your monitor have become instant experts.
and what if the watter would simply rise from normal rain and some terrorist would broke the barrier protecting the city?
I have to wonder if you've ever seen the Mississippi and Ponchartrain levees and pondered how much force would be needed to breach them.
On the issue of the government's response, where the hell have the mayor and state governor been?
Covering their asses and freaking out.....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/sns-ap-katrina-angry-mayor-hk1,1,1265065.story

[DunNa]

I'd assume the bridge was fucked during or after the hurricane, not before it, and thus the no doubt tragic state of affairs would not have affected getting the people out there who couldn't remove themselves from the city - likewise with the shooting.

I'm not sure about NO or just Louisiana in general but around here (Florida) the city bus's go to designated areas and pick up anyone that wants evacuated to a shelter. Taxi's and shuttles (basicly taxi bus's) will normally work for free or at a reduced rate, I mean its just alot smoother. Police officers around here also just don't turn in there badges and walk off when stuff like that happens.

From my experience with this (I've lived here most of my life) I'm going to say alot of the blame falls to NO/LA for this not the Feds or anyone else.

[Milkman Dan]

And watch it float away.
Also, supply drops would also create another problem: competition. With the
desperation of the people they would end up fighting over supplies. Might've even ended up being controlled by a certain group, too.

[mastablasta]

And if the hurricane had veered toward another area, these units would have been in the wrong location. You can predict hurricane landfall, but not with certainty.

They could have still been ready "nearby" (like for example in Texas).


Because it didn't get flooded to this extent.

Sure it did. Biggest rivers flooded smaller and bigger towns completely. ok maybe none of the large towns was not completelly flooded, but in that part of Germany the towns are connected to eachother. so a large number of people got wet nevertheless.

Here: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,739201,00.html

There were motor boats going through the streets of ex-West Germany capital. i would say that preety close especially since other towns got flooded as well.


As has been pointed out already.....getting items where they're needed is an incredibly difficult job when roads are out and debris blocks routes.
Shouldnt' amphibious vehicles know how to overcome debris in watter? i mean in case you make some invasion or something they should be able to overcome them or they might get stuck... ]


And watch it float away.
oh that's right. i forgot. it's impossible to control the parachutes...
Well since they needed extra units near the dome anyway, they could at least use parachuter units.


I just love how so many of you who've never been any closer to a hurricane than your monitor have become instant experts.

I love the fact how they made simulations and predictions in case such strong hurricane would struck these cities. since predictions were accurate they made some plans for rescue and they still couldn't handle it. incompetence?


I have to wonder if you've ever seen the Mississippi and Ponchartrain levees and pondered how much force would be needed to breach them.

Obviously not that much since they weren't maintained - money was needed elsewhere.


Covering their asses and freaking out.....
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/sns-ap-katrina-angry-mayor-hk1,1,1265065.story

No, they just didn't want to get in the way of rescue operations.

[GoatChomper]

They could have still been ready "nearby" (like for example in Texas).
Thereby putting them even farther away had it veered off to Florida.
Sure it did.
No, it didn't.....they didn't have a city of a half-million residents that sits below sea level.
Shouldnt' amphibious vehicles know how to overcome debris in watter?
Assuming there are amphibious vehicles aplenty, the answer is No.....even amphibious vehicles have minimum draft requirements.
oh that's right. i forgot. it's impossible to control the parachutes...
Guess you never noticed that water flows, huh.
I love the fact how they made simulations and predictions in case such strong hurricane would struck these cities. since predictions were accurate they made some plans for rescue and they still couldn't handle it. incompetence?
Yep, starting with Nagin. All the time he was screaming for Greyhound buses.....

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg

Obviously not that much since they weren't maintained - money was needed elsewhere.
Perhaps you have something to back this assertion that they weren't maintained, or shall we admit the obvious.....that Blanco was unwilling to commit state funds to build them up to withstand something more than a Category 3.

[Bone_Vulture]

Yeah, we forgot the batteries for the devices that make blocked roads clear instantly and washed-out bridges repair themselves.

Are you saying that this is something impossible to accomplish?

I just love how so many of you who've never been any closer to a hurricane than your monitor have become instant experts.

Apparently this is strictly case sensitive, since you've turned from chickenhawk to armchair general on multiple occasions. :rolleyes:

[GoatChomper]

Are you saying that this is something impossible to accomplish?
Are you claiming that obstacles don't slow vehicles?
Apparently this is strictly case sensitive, since you've turned from chickenhawk to armchair general on multiple occasions.
Apparently you're ignorant of the fact that I've spent three-quarters of my life on or near the Gulf of Mexico, so I actually know about hurricane damage firsthand.....something your monitor-conferred "wisdom" just can't match.

[Bone_Vulture]

Are you claiming that obstacles don't slow vehicles?

No, after seeing the havoc hurricanes and similar storms wreak amongst poor 3rd world countries, I always thought that a true world power could manage both damage prevention and control better than that. I admit that I was wrong.

Apparently you're ignorant of the fact that I've spent three-quarters of my life on or near the Gulf of Mexico, so I actually know about hurricane damage firsthand.....something your monitor-conferred "wisdom" just can't match.

I haven't been claiming to have any expertise on this matter. I'm simply awe-struck by the scale of destructio and chaos.

[SWATJester_os]

Sri Lanka donated $12,000, that's all they could afford. :(

12,000 can buy food for 4,000 for a day, that's helpful.

[marty]

The Mayor of New Orleans was pretty incompetent. A lot of people on the ground were complaining that he ordered an evacuation plan nearly at the last minute and didn't give them any means to evacuate.

[SWATJester_os]

Marty, there's no reason whatsoever to defend those looting TV's, PS2's and other shit while shooting at the cops. That's horseshit and you know it. You can't use the "Oh they're just so poor" response. There's 250,000 refugees in Texas right now. They got out. There's 2500 on flights to Mass. now. They got out. Stop blindly defending the poor minorities because they're poor. Lack of money does not give you the excuse to shoot guardsmen helping you, and yes guardsmen have already been wounded in the relief efforts.

It's fucking horseshit, and you know it. And yet you're going to defend Kanye West who has the balls to say that President Bush hates black people? What does he have to back that up? What? NO is only 61% black. Did the hurricane discriminate? No. Did the National Guard discriminate? No. That's fucking stupid, and I'm really disappointed you'd fall for the celebrity scamism.

[SWATJester_os]

The Mayor of New Orleans was pretty incompetent. A lot of people on the ground were complaining that he ordered an evacuation plan nearly at the last minute and didn't give them any means to evacuate.

This is true. The National Guard was ready and en route even in some cases before the hurricane hit. But the Mayor of NO and the state gov. were being a crackbunch and evacuated WAY later than Miss.'s governor did.

[marty]

I haven't defended any looters at all on any of my posts.

And it's not the content of what Kanye West said, it's that he said something at all instead of blindly following some BS that an NBC teleprompter said.

[SWATJester_os]

I haven't defended any looters at all on any of my posts.

And it's not the content of what Kanye West said, it's that he said something at all instead of blindly following some BS that an NBC teleprompter said.


"Do you think the people that stayed behind had the means to leave? No, they didn't. They were the poorest of the area, who lived from paycheck to paycheck.

Notice the date the hurricane devestated them? Yup. Right before payday."


And lets guess how those people are surviving?

[puke o'hara]

What does that have to do with defending looters, unless everyone there was stealing "TV's, PS2's and other shit while shooting at the cops"?

[marty]

"Do you think the people that stayed behind had the means to leave? No, they didn't. They were the poorest of the area, who lived from paycheck to paycheck.

Notice the date the hurricane devestated them? Yup. Right before payday."

And lets guess how those people are surviving?
I was telling Cheezy that they had no means to leave because they were so poor. He was saying that they were stupid for staying behind.

[SWATJester_os]

But yet many of them have left. What about the quarter of a million louisianans in Texas?

So many of them stayed behind ignoring the order to leave not because they couldn't, but because they wouldn't.

[marty]

Those people were able to leave... because they had the means to leave... (or were bussed there).

Everyone who had the means to leave and wanted to leave, left. Yes, there were people who had the means to leave that didn't, but that's irrelevant because a lot of people just could not go.

I don't know about you. I was born to a pretty wealthy family too, but I've had my ups and downs. If Portland was to be flooded 5 years ago, I would have taken the first flight out of the country. If Portland was to be flooded 3 years ago, I would have driven to Idaho. If Portland was to be flooded 2 years ago, I would have taken the first Greyhound out of here. If it were last year? I'd have been fucked. Thank god I'm back to the driving to Idaho situation again.

[SWATJester_os]

Marty: If they could have gotten to a shelter, they'd have been evacuated out, or scheduled for doing so. If they were sick, or infirm, or such, I can understand, but if they just didn't want to walk to any number of the shelters across the city, that's just laziness.

-edit- for reference, I'm referring to after the storm.

[marty]

Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area.

It's been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear.

Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them.

There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like -- all of them in dire straights.

Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids.

The people are so desperate that they're doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians.

The buses never stop.

Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area -- Saulet Condos -- once they tried to get cars from there... well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back.

He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific."

He says it's the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.

That was from the Katrina blog by the guys from DirectNIC

[Lord Kelvin]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.html

Police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on contractors crossing a bridge to make levee repairs, The Associated Press reported.

Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley told AP that police shot at eight people who had guns, killing five or six.

The Army Corps of Engineers told AP that 14 contractors escorted by police were fired upon while crossing the Danziger Bridge, which spans a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

Corps spokesman John Hall told AP the contractors were on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to help fix a breech in the 17th Street Canal.

Initial AP reports had wrongly indicated that the contractors themselves were shot by police; no other details were immediately available.

Why the fuck would anyone want to shoot at people trying to HELP them? If you ask me those gunmen got what they deserved, not to sound bloodthirsty or anything.

[Kak]

Cuba, Iran, and North Korea are offering to help us in any way they can :)

[Chris R]

Cuba, Iran, and North Korea are offering to help us in any way they can :)
Part of me has to wonder if it's a sincere desire to help or just political.

[lucid]

12,000 can buy food for 4,000 for a day, that's helpful.

I know, but I was sad that Sri Lanka is so poor. :(

[-V-]

You know, I can still remember watching on the news as an early-20's couple was saying "we want to see a real hurricane" when asked why they were not evacuating. I can only hope that they recieved their fill.

That, and I would say I'm waiting for the time when the Guardsmen will be ordered to reclaim the city and put a stop to all this crap of shooting at and trying to kill the people who are trying to help you-(in refrence to people trapped in New Orleans).

[nyarlathotep]

Hey guys, Kayne West (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090300165.html) knows the real story.

Please buy his CDs to show support.

[kreket]

Part of me has to wonder if it's a sincere desire to help or just political.

It might be important for Castro that it helps to justify the dictatorship ("We're the good guys! How can we be wrong?!") by showing Cuba of as a good samaritan communist, but he might also do it because he *thinks* he is a good guy. Don't underestimate the Cubans morale fiber in this issue, even if it is political coin gained nonetheless: Claiming to be able to send 1100 doctors into the disaster area should the States deem it needed is a hell of a lot better statesmanship than not saying so, both as samaritan and as realpolitiks. If Castro hadn't suggested this, people would be pointing the finger too - it would be seen as bad form not to extend this kind of friendship to the US at this time.


Cuba might be one of the few countries in the world to be able to send out doctors in that amount on such short notice, though I must admit ignorance. They do have a relatively good health system for a third world dictatorship and a history of using aid - a friend in need is a friend indeed and if cheap duplicate medicine does the works than cheap it is for a third world nation. Of course, I have no idea on the quality, training and expertise of said doctors - let alone if there really exists battalions of them ready to go and what sorts of equipment they'd bring.

It's natural to point out lack of liberties in Cuba and I agree. The US administration got other options than legitimizing that regime, so they can choose not to listen. Now, another country might have seen it as an opportunity to knot ties of friendship and try to affect Cuba through 'sunshine politics' (as impotent that may be) while saving lives and reelections. It'd be much too difficult and surreal in this case. Not to mention that the US obviously do have resources.

[aeiou]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.html



Why the fuck would anyone want to shoot at people trying to HELP them? If you ask me those gunmen got what they deserved, not to sound bloodthirsty or anything.

Just thought I'd post this as I just found something else about it on another forum. But this is very strange.

September 05, 2005

At least five people shot dead by police as they walked across a New Orleans bridge yesterday were contractors working for the US Defence department, according to a report by The Associated Press.

A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal, the new agency said, quoting a defence Department spokesman.

The contractors crossing the bridge to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain, in an operation to fix the 17th Street Canal, according to the spokesman.

The shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, across a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain to the Mississippi River.

Early on Sunday, Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley of New Orleans said police shot at eight people, killing five or six.

No other details were immediately available.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16494579%5e12377,00.html

Then there was this.

None of the contractors was injured, Mike Rogers, a disaster relief coordinator with the Army Corps of Engineers, told reporters in Baton Rouge.

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/1813397.html

Lots of strange things happening there :confused:

[Alex teh Great]

Even if Bush had decided to commission money to strengthen these levies the first day he became president...would they have had enough time to complete such a massive project?

[DunNa]

Just thought I'd post this as I just found something else about it on another forum. But this is very strange.

My head hurts! Thanks alot :p Makes you wonder which is true though, frankly I'm going to say that the 5 people with guns were shooting at contractors and then they got killed because it just seems more likely and alittle more logical then cops shooting relief workers...

[Lord Kelvin]

My head hurts! Thanks alot :p Makes you wonder which is true though, frankly I'm going to say that the 5 people with guns were shooting at contractors and then they got killed because it just seems more likely and alittle more logical then cops shooting relief workers...
Yes, and from my first quote:

Initial AP reports had wrongly indicated that the contractors themselves were shot by police; no other details were immediately available.

[FaKToR]

It might be important for Castro that it helps to justify the dictatorship ("We're the good guys! How can we be wrong?!") by showing Cuba of as a good samaritan communist, but he might also do it because he *thinks* he is a good guy.
Cuba also happens to have a rather good health care system and it used to responding to disasters such as hurricanes.

While emphasising there was still a lot to do, Ms Estrada also had praise for the Cuban Government's efficient clean-up process.

When she visited Pinar del Rio just a few days after the hurricanes, felled trees had already been removed from the roads and much of the rubble had been cleared away.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2313085.stm

Of course we all know the communists are not to be trusted :rolleyes:

Hey guys, Kayne West knows the real story.
The problem I have with that, and I think Mike Myers probably was thinking a similar thing, was that you don't want to make getting relief aid a political issue.

Even if Bush had decided to commission money to strengthen these levies the first day he became president...would they have had enough time to complete such a massive project?
From what I've seen on TV, the levees didn't break, it was a flood wall that did. And apparently it would have taken years and billions to do it.

I'd point out not everyone in New Orleans is a gun wielding criminal.

[DunNa]

I'd point out not everyone in New Orleans is a gun wielding criminal.
THE FOLLOWING IS A JOKE!

Just the black ones right?

THE ABOVE IS A JOKE!

There if its an issue just edit it out or tell me to...

Honestly though not everyone needs to have a gun or even be violent. Theres just enough wackos with guns shooting people for no reason that makes it pretty fucked up.

[FaKToR]

That's fucked up. It's alright to label everyone a looter or a criminal, but oh no, don't let anyone think all the criminals are carrying guns, because that would be offensive to guns which are much more important.

[Modest Genius]

you guys may be interested to hear that a load of brits who were caught up in it have returned home and given loads of interviews to people. lots of them have said they felt there were treated preferentially because they were white

[Daywalker]

you guys may be interested to hear that a load of brits who were caught up in it have returned home and given loads of interviews to people. lots of them have said they felt there were treated preferentially because they were white


Allegedly, New Orleans is a very racist city. Which isn't really suprising since its in Liousiana. So it would make since. My history teacher was talking about this at college, her thing is racism so she was all interested.

[GoatChomper]

Hey guys, Kayne West knows the real story.
So we're to assume the Black mayor of New Orleans hates Black people too? That must be why he didn't order evacuation and left hundreds of buses idle. Clearly, there is a simple answer for each and every question. Can't find a logical reason? Then it must be racism.

Any idiot can play the race card.....Sharpton and Jessie Jackasson have made very good careers for themselves with it.
Of course we all know the communists are not to be trusted
Of course, let's ignore the facts that Cuba is a mountainous island with few if any areas below sea level, and that it's in Papa Fidel's interests that none be reported.

[FaKToR]

Any idiot can play the race card.....Sharpton and Jessie Jackasson have made very good careers for themselves with it.
Any fool can see that racism doesn't exist.

Of course, let's ignore the facts that Cuba is a mountainous island with few if any areas below sea level, and that it's in Papa Fidel's interests that none be reported.
That statement I posted was from a red cross worker. Cuba also helps out with hurricane relief in other countries.

[GoatChomper]

That statement I posted was from a red cross worker.
And his sources were.....what? His government-issued handlers?

[FaKToR]

It's a first hand account. Maybe they tried to deceive what the worker saw, but I'm inclined to believe the red cross since I don't see how they would benefit from spreading propaganda for Cuba.

[Degree:N]

a load of brits who were caught up in it have returned home and given loads of interviews to people. Lots of them have said they felt there were treated preferentially because they were white.A report from a woman whose brother was an International Tourist in New Orleans said that the International Tourists in the superdome were given preferential treatment because they were International Tourists.

The tourists and the locals realised that the military would give the tourists preferential treatment, so the tourists formed a group to decrease the chance of attack by locals.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/mod_windows/fri.asx

-E-
"Technical difficulties" with the above link.
-E2-
Seems to be working now.

[GoatChomper]

Maybe they tried to deceive what the worker saw.....
Did he see the future, and did it work?

[kreket]

Cuba also happens to have a rather good health care system and it used to responding to disasters such as hurricanes.


I thought I said that..

A Norwegian commission for health once went to Cuba to study the welfare and health system there. ("How to get the most out of money in a state run enterprise" is interesting information in most western countries.) The institutions got real praise from someone from the neo-liberal antigovernment party's representative* and the other members (perhaps more in contact with reality?) were also somewhat impressed.

*FrP - most of it's voters agree that the party do have some unusually cheezy elements, but supports it's policies like anti-tax and some muddy areas of xenophobic tendencies.

[nyarlathotep]

So we're to assume the Black mayor of New Orleans hates Black people too? That must be why he didn't order evacuation and left hundreds of buses idle. Clearly, there is a simple answer for each and every question. Can't find a logical reason? Then it must be racism.

Any idiot can play the race card.....Sharpton and Jessie Jackasson have made very good careers for themselves with it.



You know, It's impossible to control the spousal unit's TV habits and I have to pass by in order to get to other parts of the house. I get tractor beamed by her damn shows and I've been infuriated almost to the point of paralyzation to see some of these self important jack holes monday morning quarterbacking what's going on.

The consolation is that they are ignorant, they will always be ignorant, and everyone will know except them so it's like one lifelong running joke they weren't included on.

[mastablasta]

A report from a woman whose brother was an International Tourist in New Orleans said that the International Tourists in the superdome were given preferential treatment because they were International Tourists.


One can only admire such state that is more worried abotu foreigners than their own people.


By the way, blanket anyone?

[Captain Colon]

One can only admire such state that is more worried abotu foreigners than their own people.


By the way, blanket anyone?
Getting foreigners treated first gets them out of the way so that they can go back to their countries and there's more room for people who have nowhere to go.
The consolation is that they are ignorant, they will always be ignorant, and everyone will know except them so it's like one lifelong running joke they weren't included on.
You really believe that? :X

[FaKToR]

I thought I said that..
You didn't seem too sure of yourself.

[Modest Genius]

Getting foreigners treated first gets them out of the way so that they can go back to their countries and there's more room for people who have nowhere to go.and also results in less foreign criticisms of the police. and many people tend to see reports by a person from a non-affiliated country as less liable to bias, and thus more untrustworthy. ie, theres a media benefit to doing that too

that doesnt make it right, although your point does have some merit

[lucid]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168552,00.html

Our great ally France has offered the following in the wake of Katrina: 600 tents, 1,000 cots, some kitchen kits, 60 generators and 12 experts to advise the American Red Cross. --I hope they speak English.

Now I believe the 4-H Club of Bangor, Maine, has topped that offer.

The boycott of France remains intact. Get your bumper stickers on billoreilly.com. To not do so would be ridiculous. Why do they even bother? -- Keep your cots.

Bill O'Reilly is the most disgraceful human being I've ever come across. Someone offers you help and you slap them in the face. He got it wrong as well. France gave a lot more.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a_.NZtRbYEhU

France agreed to donate 600 tents, 1,000 camp beds, 60 generators and three portable water-treatment plants as well as a 60-strong disaster relief team and two planes, two naval vessels and a hospital ship.

[siddy]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168552,00.html



Bill O'Reilly is the most disgraceful human being I've ever come across. Someone offers you help and you slap them in the face. He got it wrong as well. France gave a lot more.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a_.NZtRbYEhU

Bill O'Reilly reported something wrong? what a surprise. :eek:

[SWATJester_os]

France being a wealthy nation, should give more than that.

[GoatChomper]

Ugh, I don't like the "S" word.

[siddy]

France being a wealthy nation, should give more than that.

you must be terrible to buy presents for.

[SWATJester_os]

How about presenting an argument instead of an ad hominem?

Fuck, you guys attack O' Reilly for saying that the french aren't giving enough, but when America gives money for tsunami aid all you Euro's blame US for not giving enough. So it's ok to only give a little bit if you're not the US? Fucking hypocrites.

[Col.Kurtz]

im suprised there isnt a big international movent to help the people in New Orleans. I mean there was a big aid movement for the tsunamia and the Earthquake in BAM Iran. :(


lol other EU countries giving us a hand, i wont hold my breath.

here is a great topic that ports with others, you are right why are not more countrys giving us a hand? ask your goverment that.

find out whos being lied to.

[Col.Kurtz]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168552,00.html



Bill O'Reilly is the most disgraceful human being I've ever come across. Someone offers you help and you slap them in the face. He got it wrong as well. France gave a lot more.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a_.NZtRbYEhU
Quote:
France agreed to donate 600 tents, 1,000 camp beds, 60 generators and three portable water-treatment plants as well as a 60-strong disaster relief team and two planes, two naval vessels and a hospital ship.


lol, how gracious of them

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[siddy]

How about presenting an argument instead of an ad hominem?

Fuck, you guys attack O' Reilly for saying that the french aren't giving enough, but when America gives money for tsunami aid all you Euro's blame US for not giving enough. So it's ok to only give a little bit if you're not the US? Fucking hypocrites.

I was making a point. It might not be all that france can muster, but i believe that it's the action that counts...and c'mon, it actually is a fair bit...a whole lot better than nothing. I think France might be trying a bit of bridge building, but arseholes like O'Reilly spins something good and decent into a slanderous action.

I don't recall saying that America should give more money to the tsunami aid, but i also don't remember being a euro.

anyway, with america being the last 'superpower' you would assume that they'd be able to help others if need be.

[Col.Kurtz]

I was making a point. It might not be all that france can muster, but i believe that it's the action that counts...and c'mon, it actually is a fair bit...a whole lot better than nothing. I think France might be trying a bit of bridge building, but arseholes like O'Reilly spins something good and decent into a slanderous action.

I don't recall saying that America should give more money to the tsunami aid, but i also don't remember being a euro.

anyway, with america being the last 'superpower' you would assume that they'd be able to help others if need be.

I have found that the only people who dislike O'reilly, are those ones who dont like that Bull shit isnt falling out of his mouth. france can give more then they are, like we gave more then we should have.

[Modest Genius]

France being a wealthy nation, should give more than that.the US being a rich country, should be able to help itself

see? that statement was unfair, and so was yours


oh and people need to bear in mind the magnitude of the disaster and the relative economic strengths of nations when talking about disaster relief. comparing this to the tsunami falls foul of both criteria

[Degree:N]

One can only admire such state that is more worried abotu foreigners than their own people. My point was that they were seen to be given preferential treatment because they were tourists, not because the some/most of them were white.

And speaking of Aid:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=60419

The US has been trying to amend a draft UN declaration on so-called millennium development goals that aim to cut global poverty in half by 2015.

The US wants references to the goals removed from the declaration and substituted with the phrase internationally-agreed development goals, a move that could help Washington avoid committing to a timetable on foreign aid.

[siddy]

I have found that the only people who dislike O'reilly, are those ones who dont like that Bull shit isnt falling out of his mouth. france can give more then they are, like we gave more then we should have.

Grammar, please. I don't understand what you're saying.

[lucid]

How about presenting an argument instead of an ad hominem?

Fuck, you guys attack O' Reilly for saying that the french aren't giving enough, but when America gives money for tsunami aid all you Euro's blame US for not giving enough. So it's ok to only give a little bit if you're not the US? Fucking hypocrites.

I don't know maybe France asked what America needed and America said oh we're short of this maybe you could help out and France was all like oh cool we can do that we'll send that over as soon as possible.

I'd also like you to show where I said that America never gave enough in the Tsunami. Never once have I said that nor have I said that America is rich enough it doesn't need aid in this disaster. Maybe some people did but please don't lump me in with the partisan left.

I attacked Bill O' Reilly for saying reject the aid and that he lied to make it look like France gave less than it did to satisfy his own partisan vendetta.

[lucid]

I have found that the only people who dislike O'reilly, are those ones who dont like that Bull shit isnt falling out of his mouth. france can give more then they are, like we gave more then we should have.

If you read Al Franken's latest book he has a whole chapter or two dedicated to pointing out O'Reilly's lies. Like Franken or not and he's partisan as fuck but I'll be damned if that book isn't well researched (he had 10 Harvard graduates researching it) and accurate.

I dislike O'Reilly because he lies. Not for any other reason.

[Kak]

I don't HATE O'Reilly, but I don't like him. And this just upsets me: http://www.billoreilly.com/site/product?pid=18704

[siddy]

I don't HATE O'Reilly, but I don't like him. And this just upsets me: http://www.billoreilly.com/site/product?pid=18704

it's probably manufactured in China anyway ;)

[vecdran]

possibly because, unlike bam or aceh or darfur, the US is capable both financially and in terms of infrastructure of helping itself.

can you just imagine french troops turning up to search through the wreckage? would the US really let them do it?

besides, floods of similar magnitude happen on a regular basis in bangladesh and other monsoon-afflicted countries, they just dont get the same blanket media coverage

as an aside, im baffled as to why almost all (even non US) news agencies are putting new orleans first on their reports, and baghdad second, despite the fact that more lives have been lost and there is more political consequence in baghdad

Seriously, do you ever say ANYTHING intelligent?

[kreket]

Officials said that nearly half a million people remained marooned in seven flood-hit districts in the country's north west and in the south.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2116055.stm

"Flood of the century" - 1998. I was largely ignorant to this, but the casualty rate IS much lower than what is expected in the US.

Few deaths occur, probably because the locals know how to handle it from past experience and a high dependence on rivers for traffic. Everyone just hops into the boat they own and find some sturdy tree to tie it up. Food production takes a major hit and diseases are a killer.

Vecdran, are you contributing anything to this discussion?

[vecdran]

, are you contributing anything to this discussion?

About as much as he is.


I have hardly seen a single post from Modest Genius that does not degrade into idiotic US bashing over Iraq.

[Modest Genius]

Seriously, do you ever say ANYTHING intelligent?seriously, thats up to you to decide

oh and so is reading the stickies about ad hominem attacks

[GoatChomper]

Few deaths occur, probably because the locals know how to handle it from past experience and a high dependence on rivers for traffic. Everyone just hops into the boat they own and find some sturdy tree to tie it up. Food production takes a major hit and diseases are a killer.
Not to menton the cold, hard fact that as a whole they don't have as far to fall.

[kreket]

I have hardly seen a single post from Modest Genius that does not degrade into idiotic US bashing over Iraq.

Our worlds collide. Do point out the next time he is over the tops and please let it be a tiny bit more serious than criticising the Colin Powell speech to the UN on WMD or defending the "lieberal" BBC from comparisons with the "clearly unpartial" FOX networks news broadcast.

[Wallrod]

Here's a slightly more thought-out diatribe than Kayne West's: http://media.putfile.com/OlbermannSwings

I'm not really one for personal bias in the media, but kudos all the same for not sitting back and echoing what's been handed to them.

[kreket]

Humorous in the same way as the misantropic bitch.

Who is that guy?

[SWATJester_os]

Humorous in the same way as the misantropic bitch.

Who is that guy?

Meaning not humorous at all?

[M123]

Interresting story.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/9/155458.shtml

Al Gore helped airlift some 270 Katrina evacuees on two private charters from New Orleans, acting at the urging of a doctor who saved the life of the former vice president's son.

Gore criticized the Bush administration's slow response to Katrina in a speech Friday in San Francisco, but refused to be interviewed about the mercy missions he financed and flew on Sept. 3 and 4.

However, Dr. Anderson Spickard, who is Gore's personal physician and accompanied him on the flights, said: "Gore told me he wanted to do this because like all of us he wanted to seize the opportunity to do what one guy can do, given the assets that he has."

An account of the flights was posted this week on a democratic party Web page. It was written by Greg Simon, president of the Washington-based activist group FasterCures. Simon, who helped put together the mission, also declined an interview.

On Sept. 1, three days after Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast, Simon learned that Dr. David Kline, a neurosurgeon who operated on Gore's son, Albert, after a life-threatening auto accident in 1989, was trying to get in touch with Gore. Kline was stranded with patients at Charity Hospital in New Orleans.

"The situation was dire and becoming worse by the minute - food and water running out, no power, 4 feet of water surrounding the hospital and ... corpses outside," Simon wrote.

Gore responded immediately, telephoning Kline and agreeing to underwrite the $50,000 each for the two flights, although Larry Flax, founder of California Pizza Kitchens, later pledged to pay for one of them.

"None of the airlines involved required a contract or any written guarantee of payment before sending their planes and volunteer crews," Simon wrote of the American Airlines flights. "One official said if Gore promised to pay, that was good enough for them."

He also recruited two doctors, Spickard and Gore's cousin, retired Col. Dar LaFon, a specialist in internal medicine who once ran the military hospital in Baghdad.

Most critically, Gore worked to cut through government red tape, personally calling Gov. Phil Bredesen to get Tennessee's support and U.S. Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta to secure landing rights in New Orleans.

About 140 people, many of them sick, landed in Knoxville on Sept. 3. The second flight, with 130 evacuees, landed the next day in Chattanooga.

[SWATJester_os]

Interesting indeed....so they were american airlines flights? How did they get the patients out of the hospital then? Article makes it seem like they were stranded there.

[Bobo*the*Clown]

How did Kline call out to Gore three days after the Hurricane? Satellite phone? How'd Gore call him back? Good thing they had power to keep the phone working. How'd they get the people from the hospital to the airport? How was American Airlines able to land a commercial jet on a runway without a control tower, runway lights, support or re-fueling supplies on the ground? How'd they discover the runway was even useable and clear for landing with no communication ability on the ground?

Damned impressive feat.

[M123]

Link to original source of article: http://www.algore-08.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282&Itemid=78

[SWATJester_os]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he didn't do it. I'm just curious how it all worked out.

[GoatChomper]

Meanwhile, what's all this hot air about federal budget cuts to levee projects being to blame.....

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=1&issue=20050909

Nota bene:
Despite Landrieu's complaints of budget cuts and paltry funding, the fact is that over the five years of the Bush administration, Louisiana has received more money — $1.9 billion — for Army Corps of Engineers civil works projects than any other state, and more than under any other administration over a similar period. California is a distant second with less than $1.4 billion despite a population more than seven times as large.

[kreket]

Meaning not humorous at all?

Dark sadistic chuckles, occasionally with a guilty taste on my lips. The amusement it gives me varies by the story and content. You don't like her much, do you?

[SWATJester_os]

No, because she's not funny.

[Bone_Vulture]

Tom Tomorrow clearly hates America's freedom.

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW09-14-05.jpg

[SWATJester_os]

Also not funny.

[FaKToR]

That's the sad thing, it's not funny.

[Bone_Vulture]

That's the sad thing, it's not funny.

It's always funnier when you're on the opposite side of the globe and completely unaffected (save for gas prices) by the crisis. ;)