Bush: 'I take responsibility'

[Krispy Joe]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/13/MTFH89819_2005-09-13_18-35-28_EIC358139.html


Wow. Discuss.

[DunNa]

I'm not one to normally be anti-bush but its looking like hes going to try and use this to further some plan to spend 50bil on some wierd hurricane protection web that does nothing besides make him look even worse in the media :rolleyes:

[FaKToR]

I hope people will remember this doesn't excuse it. Maybe this will cause his approval rating to go up.

[BlindSite]

Meh, props for taking the blame but it doesn't fix anything.

On a side note: I have heard in certain areas that this hurricane normally wouldn't have been possible BUT due to the rising climate around the world it affected something which in turn cause the massive hurricane to grow so massive. If that's the case isn't this a little unfair to be blaming anyone except mother nature?

[StandingCow]

No shit mister president... now how to not let it happen again?

[BlindSite]

How could you forsee it actually happening in the first place, was this not an unprecedented size hurricane?

[StandingCow]

Ya know what I take back my previous statement... or at least I need to clarify.

First off, this isnt the presidents fault, he cant control the weather... HE isnt responsible for making sure the city is prepared.. the mayor is.

Now my problem is after they asked for help... it taking so long for the help to get there.

I think bush is an easy scapegoat with his public opinion being so low. Everyone is pointing the finger.

[Loké]

How could you forsee it actually happening in the first place, was this not an unprecedented size hurricane?

Not especially. And what's really pissing people off is not so much the huricane, but the fact that the flood defenses, which scientests and whatnot had been repeatedly saying for months, years, before the hurricane hit that if one like katrina hit, the defences would collapse. One scientist wrote an article about 7-8 months ago which predicted-to the letter-what would happen if a hurricane like Katrina hit.

[BlindSite]

So you're saying because a few people in the scientific community wrote warnings he's negligent. Excuse me if I don't expect someone to bend over backwards because of an article...

[Prowl]

Meh, props for taking the blame but it doesn't fix anything.

On a side note: I have heard in certain areas that this hurricane normally wouldn't have been possible BUT due to the rising climate around the world it affected something which in turn cause the massive hurricane to grow so massive. If that's the case isn't this a little unfair to be blaming anyone except mother nature?

So lets ignore the US and Australia being the two worst greenhouse gas emitters per capita in the world? And global warming obviously had no influence at all in creating the conditions that permit the formation of so many large hurricanes off the atlantic.

Ever heard of the Gaia principle?

I guess mother nature is issuing some pay back huh?

[Loké]

Blindsite: Using your line of argument, there's no link between smoking and cancer because scientists say so.

[pro kossu]

So you're saying because a few people in the scientific community wrote warnings he's negligent. Excuse me if I don't expect someone to bend over backwards because of an article...

Hmm.. .



In early 2001, FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency of the U.S. government, listed a major hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the three most serious threats to the nation. The other two were a terrorist attack in New York City and a large earthquake hitting San Francisco.

Numerous articles, reports, and documentaries attempted to publicize the risk.

2001

* September 2001. Popular Mechanics ran a story called New Orleans Is Sinking discussing what might happen if a severe hurricane landed on New Orleans.

* October 2001. Scientific American published an article by Mark Fischetti called Drowning New Orleans. This article begins, "A major hurricane could swamp New Orleans under 20 feet of water, killing thousands. Human activities along the Mississippi River have dramatically increased the risk, and now only massive reengineering of southeastern Louisiana can save the city… New Orleans is a disaster waiting to happen."

* December 2001. The Houston Chronicle published a story, Keeping its head above water: New Orleans faces doomsday scenario which predicted that a severe hurricane striking New Orleans "would strand 250,000 people or more, and probably kill one of 10 left behind as the city drowned under 20 feet of water. Thousands of refugees could land in Houston."

2002

Walter Williams, the creator of Mr. Bill, did a serious short feature called "New Orleans: The Natural History", in which an expert said a direct hit by a hurricane could damage the city for six months [3]. A summary for the documentary noted:

What few people realize is that the very forces that created New Orleans now threaten its very existence. The eco-system is incredibly fragile and volatile, and if no action is taken, the city could be wiped out in the next hurricane or gradually swept into the sea from the current course of things.

* June 2002. The New Orleans Times-Picayune published an award-winning five-part series called Washing Away by John McQuaid and Mark Schleifstein. It covered various scenarios, including a Category 5 hurricane hitting the city from the south. The series also explored the various environmental changes that have increased the area's vulnerability. One article in the series concluded

Hundreds of thousands would be left homeless, and it would take months to dry out the area and begin to make it livable. But there wouldn't be much for residents to come home to. The local economy would be in ruins.

2003

* June 2003: An article entitled The Creeping Storm from Civil Engineering Magazine included the following quote:

The design of the original levees, which dates to the 1960s, was based on rudimentary storm modeling that, it is now realized, might underestimate the threat of a potential hurricane. Even if the modeling was adequate, however, the levees were designed to withstand only forces associated with a fast-moving hurricane that, according to the National Weather Service’s Saffir-Simpson scale, would be placed in category 3. If a lingering category 3 storm — or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5 — were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water.

2004

* October 2004. The National Geographic Magazine published a feature titled Gone With the Water. The article's primary focus is on the destruction of the Mississippi delta's wetlands and the effects that this has on the region's ability to withstand a hurricane, in addition to ecological and social impacts. The article begins with a haunting hypothetical worst-case scenario. [4]

* November 2004. The Natural Hazards Observer carried an article entitled What if Hurricane Ivan Had Not Missed New Orleans?, which suggested "The potential for such extensive flooding and the resulting damage is the result of a levee system that is unable to keep up with the increasing flood threats from a rapidly eroding coastline and thus unable to protect the ever-subsiding landscape." [5]

2005

* January 2005. The PBS science show Nova aired an episode on the hurricane threat to New Orleans, including interviews with New Orleans officials and scientists involved in the LSU study. The episode is available for online viewing here.

* May 2005. The American Prospect carried "Thinking Big About Hurricanes". That article described the likely aftermath of a major storm surge. "Soon the geographical "bowl" of the Crescent City would fill up with the waters of the lake, leaving those unable to evacuate with little option but to cluster on rooftops — terrain they would have to share with hungry rats, fire ants, nutria, snakes, and perhaps alligators. The water itself would become a festering stew of sewage, gasoline, refinery chemicals, and debris."

* June 2005. The FX docudrama Oil Storm depicted a category 4 hurricane hitting New Orleans and forcing residents to evacuate and hide out in the Superdome. The docudrama went on to speculate about a national economic meltdown caused by the decreased oil supply.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_preparedness_for_New_Orleans


I dont know if the work could've been completed if started in 2001 or if there was money for it, but the hurricane certainly didnt come out of the blue. The fingers crossed and hoping for the best policy just didnt work this time.

[Stig]

No shit mister president... now how to not let it happen again?
Ask God to stop throwing hurricanes at us?
.. I just don't get some people.

[siddy]

Ask God to stop throwing hurricanes at us?
.. I just don't get some people.

it's cute when you act unaware.

The hurrican problem ended 2 weeks ago, the big problems are still around.

[DunNa]

it's cute when you act unaware.

The hurrican problem ended 2 weeks ago, the big problems are still around.

I wrote this huge like 8 paragraph response to this but I instead just condenced it to this. The state should take ultimate responsiblilty for themselves before blaming anyone outside of itself unless they asked for help and was turned down before the hurricane.

Which last I heard all the leaders in NewOrleans and LA where like "omgz I r teh dumbazz wat r teh hurricane!?!?!111" then like 5min before the thing hits land they say evacuate... Yes thats abit over the top but summed up it kinda explains this thing alot better. Even if Bush decided that NewOrleans should have been evactuated whats he going to do come down to the mayors office and be like "Yo get your peeps outa here or I bring in the pain train on your ass!" He could have asked nicely or done it with force but he has no real powers to evacuate a city last I heard.

Better yet! http://kerrystopshurricane.ytmnd.com/

Yeah its not serious but god I just love that and it kinda makes you think about how stupid it is to blame a person with very little power when it comes to things like this except to throw money and aid at it (which is of course after the fact).

[FaKToR]

The main complaints against the Bush administration was the response by the federal government. This is especially disconcerting since he was the one making such a big deal of how he was going to whip our federal emergency response into shape after 9/11.

[Walnut]

And global warming obviously had no influence at all in creating the conditions that permit the formation of so many large hurricanes off the atlantic.

Well, that's true. The past 50 years have actually had below-average intensity hurricanes, according to the NWS (relative to when recording of hurricanes started, in about 1870). Global warming has raised the worldwide average temperature about 1 or 2 degrees Fahrenheit.. Hardly enough to have a huge impact on the strength of a hurricane.

Plus, there's some debate as to how much humans cause global warming. I've seen estimates that human involvement is reponsible for .4% of global warming. Not very significant.

Blindsite, they definitely knew there was a significant chance of the levees breaking well in advance. They were only designed to be capable of resisting a category 3 hurricane (not that that matters, a very rainy category 2 could have breached them).

[Kak]

I'm not too fond of Bush, and wouldn't vote for him, but I don't really think it's appropriate that he takes responsability for this. Although it seems he just sat back and didn't do anything, this was a huge disaster and there are plenty of other people that are more responsible than he is.

[SWATJester_os]

Good on him for doing this. He didn't have to. It wasn't his fault. As the article says, the majority of americans blame the state. The state legally had the responsibility and has been trying to shift the blame. No one person, organization, or agency is to blame here, but rather a systematic failure.

I sit back and await the left's response.

[FaKToR]

You have to be kidding me if you felt FEMA's response was adequate. It was his fault Swat, he specifically took responsibility for the FEDERAL governments screw up, which is still kind of vague, but a step in the right direction.

[GoatChomper]

And what's really pissing people off is not so much the huricane, but the fact that the flood defenses, which scientests and whatnot had been repeatedly saying for months, years, before the hurricane hit that if one like katrina hit, the defences would collapse.
And Katrina proved that thesis wrong. What breached the levees was the amount of rain dumped into Lake Ponchartrain, not the storm surge.

A little education on storms is in order, people. If you look, you'll see that storm categories include predictions on the height of a storm surge but are silent on the amount of predicted rainfall.
And global warming obviously had no influence at all in creating the conditions that permit the formation of so many large hurricanes off the atlantic.
That's right, it didn't.

Warming water increases the duration, frequency, and duration of El Niño formations, and El Niño formations increase westerly winds.....which in turn tend to disrupt tropical depressions.

[M123]

I sit back and await the left's response.

Couple of thousand people die, billions of damage and you are playing some dumb left-right political game. Great show of perspective there.

[BlindSite]

He's referring to the acceptance of blame, not the deaths of people...

[SWATJester_os]

Couple of thousand people die, billions of damage and you are playing some dumb left-right political game. Great show of perspective there.

Read blindsite's post before you attack me again. I was referring to their response to the statement.

You have to be kidding me if you felt FEMA's response was adequate. It was his fault Swat, he specifically took responsibility for the FEDERAL governments screw up, which is still kind of vague, but a step in the right direction.

Bush does not write FEMA doctrine. He ordered them into action, and Michael Brown fucked up. Brown has since resigned. This is on Bush how? Bush does not oversee FEMA's day to day operations.......I'm not saying he's not at all to blame, I'm just saying he's taking more responsibility than he should.


FEMA was also held back in distributing food by the ineptitude of the LA state gov't.

[StandingCow]

Ask God to stop throwing hurricanes at us?
.. I just don't get some people.

Perhaps I worded it wrong... what I ment was the delay in reacting. Smartass.

And had you read my next statement you woulda seen that I retracted what I had said... none of this is the presidents fault... its the mayors for lack of preperation... then I guess shit rolls uphill...

[lucid]

Read blindsite's post before you attack me again. I was referring to their response to the statement.

If you play partisan politics over who is to blame that's just as bad.


Bush does not write FEMA doctrine. He ordered them into action, and Michael Brown fucked up. Brown has since resigned. This is on Bush how? Bush does not oversee FEMA's day to day operations.......I'm not saying he's not at all to blame, I'm just saying he's taking more responsibility than he should.

He appointed Michael Brown knowing full well that Michael Brown didn't have any experience in this kind of role. He didn't come through the ranks, he was given the job. Brown may even have falsified parts of his resume.

To be fair to Brown I've heard the Michael Chertoff had a lot to do with the delayed response by FEMA.

FEMA was also held back in distributing food by the ineptitude of the LA state gov't.

Probably.

On a side note, I think it's funny to see Republicans attack state level government and the Democrats attacking federal level government when usually it is the other way around.

[SWATJester_os]

On Michael Brown's allegedly falsified resume, he had all sorts of emergency management experience. Where on earth are you digging up that he didn't have any experience? FEMA is not the national hurricane response service....it has many roles.

And again, don't accuse me of playing partisan politics here. I just want to see what the left-wingers have to say about it.

[M123]

As I see it you had a big disaster which was not completely unexpected and could have been handled better. People should be howling for the heads of goverment officials who failed to properly protect their citizens, instead there seems to be more a left-right entrenchment with each side defending their own. I might be wrong, I don't know.

[Lusty_Muffins]

After New Orleans is all cleaned up I'll bet 75% of the people who lived there will just rebuild and CONTINUE living there.

[jeffy]

Meh, props for taking the blame but it doesn't fix anything.

On a side note: I have heard in certain areas that this hurricane normally wouldn't have been possible BUT due to the rising climate around the world it affected something which in turn cause the massive hurricane to grow so massive. If that's the case isn't this a little unfair to be blaming anyone except mother nature?


Being that I live in the south, I can't say with 100% scientific fact that this hurricane wouldn't have still happened, but the majority of research in this area has shown that the marsh lands/wet lands which oddly enough help to soak up even more water because of their dense vegetation had kept new orleans and other affected areas from major catastrophe because they kept water levels low at that lake and other places where the levy's broke because they were only made for a category 3 hurricane. So although I am not 100% for sure that this enabled events to spiral out of hand, I do feel like our destruction of land that had seemingly protected that area for what... at least 150 years since we've been in that area probably has something to do with the situation now. Its never good to build a city below sea level surround on two sides by the ocean and then a huge lake to the north... and then on top of that take away wet lands that keep water levels in that lake low.

Just my opinion though.

[jeffy]

Also as far as hurricanes go... hurricanes form exactly like tornado's.. in that when a warm and cold front meet, the warm air moves up and the cold air rushes downward and begins turning. The direction of the hurrican (way it spins) is in direct relation to its location to the equator... like flushing a toilet in austrailia, the water rotates in a different direction.

That is why when a hurricane reaches the gulf it increases in speed, because there is much more warm air so when it rises even more cold air rushes into the void and therefore increasing speed.

I'm not expert so those are pretty lamen's terms, but thats my limited understanding of it.

[SWATJester_os]

Actually, hurricanes form generally from subtropical easterly waves. From Wiki:


1. Tropical waves, or easterly waves, which, as mentioned above, are westward moving areas of convergent winds. This convergence frequently assists in the development of thunderstorms, which can develop into tropical cyclones. The majority of tropical cyclones form from these. A similar phenomenon to tropical waves are West African disturbance lines, which are squally lines of convection that form over Africa and move into the Atlantic.
2. Tropical upper tropospheric troughs, which are cold-core upper level lows. A warm-core tropical cyclone may result when one of these (on occasion) works down to the lower levels and produces deep convection.
3. Decaying frontal boundaries may occasionally stall over warm waters and produce lines of active convection. If a low level circulation forms under this convection, it may develop into a tropical cyclone.


Furthermore the critical number is 26.5 celsius to 50m of SST that can churn the low pressure furnace of warm moist air required for the hurricane.

[BlindSite]

Also as far as hurricanes go... hurricanes form exactly like tornado's.. in that when a warm and cold front meet, the warm air moves up and the cold air rushes downward and begins turning. The direction of the hurrican (way it spins) is in direct relation to its location to the equator... like flushing a toilet in austrailia, the water rotates in a different direction.

That is why when a hurricane reaches the gulf it increases in speed, because there is much more warm air so when it rises even more cold air rushes into the void and therefore increasing speed.

I'm not expert so those are pretty lamen's terms, but thats my limited understanding of it.

Yeah that's correct, but did Global Warming potentially increase the amount of hot air to cold air, therfore the size of the hurricane?

[Moe_Rahn]

On Michael Brown's allegedly falsified resume, he had all sorts of emergency management experience. Where on earth are you digging up that he didn't have any experience? FEMA is not the national hurricane response service....it has many roles.
Assistant to the emergency director for one city constitutes "all sorts of experience"?

Straight out of the FEMA website:


Prior to joining FEMA, Mr. Brown practiced law in Colorado and Oklahoma, where he served as a bar examiner on ethics and professional responsibility for the Oklahoma Supreme Court and as a hearing examiner for the Colorado Supreme Court. He had been appointed as a special prosecutor in police disciplinary matters. While attending law school he was appointed by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee of the Oklahoma Legislature as the Finance Committee Staff Director, where he oversaw state fiscal issues. His background in state and local government also includes serving as an assistant to the city manager with emergency services oversight responsibilities and as a city councilman.

Mr. Brown was also an adjunct professor of law for the Oklahoma City University.

A native of Oklahoma, Mr. Brown holds a bachelor's degree in Public Administration/Political Science from Central State University, Oklahoma. He received his J.D. from Oklahoma City University’s School of Law.

Plenty of law experience, yes, but only that one regarding emercency management prior to his appointment to FEMA. If he's got emercency management experience out the wazoo, why wouldn't FEMA put it in his official bio?

[GoatChomper]

Yeah that's correct.....
No, it's not. The rotational impetus for hurricanes is provided by the Earth's rotation while the rotational impetus for tornados that form on the US plains is provided by hot, dry, fast air coming up from the Chihuahua Desert.

[SWATJester_os]

Assistant to the emergency director for one city constitutes "all sorts of experience"?

Straight out of the FEMA website:


Plenty of law experience, yes, but only that one regarding emercency management prior to his appointment to FEMA. If he's got emercency management experience out the wazoo, why wouldn't FEMA put it in his official bio?

According to the current debate he was assistant emergency director, not assistant TO the emergency director. Either way, it's knowledge.

[siddy]

According to the current debate he was assistant emergency director, not assistant TO the emergency director. Either way, it's knowledge.

I don't think many people would argue that assistant manager for a city gives the experience needed for the director of an entire nation.

[BlindSite]

No, it's not. The rotational impetus for hurricanes is provided by the Earth's rotation
In conjunction with the above, I apologise for not being entirley specific. It didn't really apply to the point I was trying to raise therfore I did not go into it.

[Moe_Rahn]

According to the current debate he was assistant emergency director, not assistant TO the emergency director. Either way, it's knowledge.
According to FEMA itself, he was assistant TO the emergency thingy guy. Yes, it's still knowledge, but it's not necessarily the position it's hyped up to be.

[jeffy]

According to FEMA itself, he was assistant TO the emergency thingy guy. Yes, it's still knowledge, but it's not necessarily the position it's hyped up to be.


I've been an administrative assistant before... that requires that I answer the phones and try to handle a few payroll isssues, oh and the all important... pass out checks.

[Moe_Rahn]

I've been an administrative assistant before... that requires that I answer the phones and try to handle a few payroll isssues, oh and the all important... pass out checks.
Yeah, but unless someone who worked with him comes out and says "Oh yeah, I remember Michael Brown, he always had our coffee ready on time," or "Man, that one time when Michael Brown stopped a storm dead in its tracks just by sneering at it was awesome," then we'll probably still keep arguing over the relevance of the word "to".

Christ, and I thought arguing over what the meaning of "is" is was ridiculous. Oh well, this is still pretty fun.

[ScAvenger001]

On Michael Brown's allegedly falsified resume, he had all sorts of emergency management experience. Where on earth are you digging up that he didn't have any experience?Ahem. (http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showpost.php?p=42680&postcount=1)

Yeah, but unless someone who worked with him comes out and says "Oh yeah, I remember Michael Brown, he always had our coffee ready on time," or "Man, that one time when Michael Brown stopped a storm dead in its tracks just by sneering at it was awesome," then we'll probably still keep arguing over the relevance of the word "to".Someone did, see above.

[FaKToR]

What the hell is that scav.

[SWATJester_os]

Ahem. (http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/member.php?u=35)

Someone did, see above.

What does Matt have to do with anything?

[ScAvenger001]

Sorry about that, I was aiming for this:
http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showpost.php?p=42680&postcount=1

(I made that post after messing with his title, my bad)

[SWATJester_os]

the counter statement about him being an intern is debatable, as heard on Fox XM radio news the other night (can't cite beyond that atm.)

[SOCOM-DELTA]

only one word can sum up jeffy's statement here:

pwnd.