Chancellor-race in Germany

[BAS]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4257010.stm

so its between the slightly left-of-center Shroeder and the more conservative Merkel (who would be the first woman Chancellor). On the one hand I agree more with Shroeder's economic policies, but Merkel is campaigning on, among other things, stronger ties to the US. Having a strong ally in Europe besides the UK is promising.

[MakeMyDay]

Merkel got owned. They aren't able to form a goverment even together with the FPD .

I don't like the CDU , or to be more precise I don't like allot of the individuals in the CDU . Merkel is ok though.

Schroeder has the balls to change allot of things in Germany , things that need to change , and it pisses people of.

It looks like in the end though most people understood that these are changes that are NEEDED and are good for the whole country.

Also the "good ties with the US" BAS mentioned is a major turn off for the voters . Nobody in Germany wants to have a close relationship with the Bush goverment.

Also CDU is big on making education fucking EXPENSIVE for students and that is a big NO for me.

The only good thing about the CDU is that they said from the start , they don't want Turkey in the EU.

[[Political] Slayer]

They just said that at the exit polls, schroder was voted out. It would be good to repair ties with Germany considering we were the ones who helped unfuck themselves after WW2.

[HarryB]

That really doesn't mean nothing today though. 50 years ago maybe, but the world has changed to much today for that to be an issue.

[BAS]

and we all know how accurate exit polls are

[SWATJester_os]

Hey MMD, you do realize the Bush government will be gone in 3 years right?

[HarryB]

Hey MMD, you do realize the Bush government will be gone in 3 years right?


And they can re-evaluate their opinion on the US when it happens.

[SWATJester_os]

And I'm sure they will. But if they're too stupid to realize that he's a lame duck president, and they're going to stake their futures on punishing him because they don't like the way he ran OUR country, what happens in 3 years, when he's gone, and hypothetically we have a democratic victory in the congressional midterms, a new liberal on the supreme court to replace O'conner, and a democratic president who is openly friendly to germany and france? Oh too bad, so sad, fuck you german public says the xenophobic rabidly anti US gov't they elect, out of spite against bush?

I realise I'm posting a worst case scenario, but FFS people.....hate him all you want but he's about to be up out this beyotch.

[BlindSite]

Not trying to be a smart arse, I am genuinley curious, does Xenophobia extend to geography or ONLY race or is it culture as well?

[SWATJester_os]

Depends how you define the term. Even then it can refer to many things: you can say that a person is xenophobic towards people not of their own geographical location, or it can apply towards foreign culture too, down to foods and movies, or it can be as base as racial lines.

[BlindSite]

Ah ok, thnx.

[kreket]

Slayer']They just said that at the exit polls, schroder was voted out. It would be good to repair ties with Germany considering we were the ones who helped unfuck themselves after WW2.

I'm pretty sure the nowadays Prussian agree. Or maybe they want Germany to remain out of military actions.

'Repair ties' sometimes strikes me as 'start to help with the war'. With the Germans I find that a natural attitude after what they've been through and how much blood their grandparents have on their hands. And 'repair ties'? When were they broken? By whom?

[HarryB]

And I'm sure they will. But if they're too stupid to realize that he's a lame duck president, and they're going to stake their futures on punishing him because they don't like the way he ran OUR country, what happens in 3 years, when he's gone, and hypothetically we have a democratic victory in the congressional midterms, a new liberal on the supreme court to replace O'conner, and a democratic president who is openly friendly to germany and france? Oh too bad, so sad, fuck you german public says the xenophobic rabidly anti US gov't they elect, out of spite against bush?

I realise I'm posting a worst case scenario, but FFS people.....hate him all you want but he's about to be up out this beyotch.


The thing is, that their government will be there just a long (I'm guessing). The fact that Bush is only going to be there for a little while longer isn't as important as the fact that he IS here now. Once he's gone, supposing a president takes power that they can get along with, Germany's parties will be changing their lines. The German public obviously want nothing to do with Bush, and they're going to vote according to that. Maybe they'll change later, but not now. 3 years is a long time.

In any event, I doubt Germany's future really want anything to do with the States. The EU is making a nice profit off itself and China, so I don't think they preticularly care.

IMO

[Modest Genius]

well, you have to hand it to shroeder, hes pulled the cat out of the bag rather well. when the election was announced, merkel had a 21, yes TWENTY ONE, point lead over him. and in the event the margin was about 1%

itll be interesting to see what sort of coalition forms out of this, and what sort of policies they come up with. both main parties will have to involve some parties from 'the other side' as it were to gain power, which should temper things a little. then again, it may end up being utterly ineffective

[Modest Genius]

seems Merckel has got the job, but the majority of ministers will be SPD

[DunNa]

So germany is going to have a conservative female chancellor? Interesting and how far to the right is she, like compared to say the US republican party?

[Modest Genius]

nowhere near that far. supposedly, shes somewhat near maggie thatcher. therefore, the very left end of republicans, or rightwing democrats

[SWATJester_os]

More mccainist style? What's her immigration stance?

[M123]

Look at http://www.cdu.de/en/3440.htm under Goverment Programme for her party's political program. Should have a section on immigration.

[Evil Superstar]

More mccainist style? What's her immigration stance?

I don't know how good your german is: http://www.cdu.de/doc/pdf/az_zuwanderung.pdf

from what I can gather it's nothing out of the ordinary for me: immigration in general should be well regulated and limited, people should be helped in integratin in the society, while the more unwanted people (hate mongers, possible terrorists) should be treated more firmly.

note: my german needs some serious polishing. D:


edit: in english http://www.cdu.de/en/doc/partyprinciples.pdf page 42

[Modest Genius]

germans have always been reasonably liberal on immigration, they have substantial turkish, yugoslav and other eastern europe minorities. i dont know merckels stance on it though. besides, shell have to agree EVERY policy with the SPD, which will probably produce a centrist regime

btw, i have no idea who McCain is, so i cant answer that question

[SWATJester_os]

Sen. John McCain R-AZ, the reason I registered republican. Lost the primary against Bush in 2000. He is very centrist and is famous for actively working with Democrats to pass important legislation such as the McCain Feingold Campaign Finance Reform build, as well as other acts such as tighter immigration control, sensible governmental spending etc. He's extremely well respected. He was a war hero in Vietnam, not in the kinda-sorta maybe if it was true sense that Kerry was: McCain was a POW for 6 years, and saved the lives of several sailors as a pilot on the USS Forrestall when the ship caught on fire. I can't remember if it's he or his wife that is pro-choice, but he's very much considered to be pro-status quo on abortion rights, i.e. no changing, won't consider nominees to the supreme court that would overturn Roe v. Wade, and sensible, not idealogical nominees to the federal bench.

In short, he's a dream candidate for non-christian republicans, or conservatives that do not agree with some of the more extremist republican party values.

[Evil Superstar]

that's another thing that strikes me as a typical difference between the US politics and European political scene: no politician here will never mention any possible military career to win some votes (not that I think many have a military career to begin with) and at least for my country I can't think of any time were military issues were of any importance on the political scene. (well maybe one instance were a socialist minister was accused of taking bribes from helicopter builder Agusta)

[SWATJester_os]

Many euro countries also have mandatory service, so it's not much of a huge deal.

[Walnut]

I don't care if someone was in the military or not, it doesn't influence my vote - especially if they were in the military during the draft era.

[SWATJester_os]

Draftees are any less deserving of recognition for their service than volunteers?

[Walnut]

Draftees are any less deserving of recognition for their service than volunteers?

No, but they didn't join because they wanted to serve the country, they joined because they had to (of course, there may be some who would have joined anyway). A bit different.

[SWATJester_os]

Different but not lesser. The act of defending one's country is honorable.

[Walnut]

The act of defending one's country is honorable.

Yep. But being in a war is not the same as defending one's country (not that that was in any way the soldier's fault)..

[SWATJester_os]

Serving in the military IS defending ones country. Draftee or not, they swore the oath.

[StandingCow]

Just because you volunteer doesnt mean you did it to server your country either..

Some because its a last resort, some for money for college.

[Modest Genius]

many wars are fought not for the defence of your country, but for the defence of another, aggression, political reasons etc.

simply being in a war is not the same as protecting your country

[puke o'hara]

Where the hell did this discussion go to?

Anyhow, in case some of the people here don't know this yet, Merkel will be the new chancellor (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4325600.stm), but the SPD will have most of the more important ministeries - or something like that.

[BAS]

Parliamentary government boggles my mind. How the hell do you expect to get anything done?

[marty]

Why is it that the only women ever voted into executive power are conservative?

[Modest Genius]

because theres only so much progressivism that the ballot box will put up with. i wouldve thought that was fairly obvious.

[HarryB]

Parliamentary government boggles my mind. How the hell do you expect to get anything done?

I think that was the point. If no one can agree on it, then it's probably not worth it. Likewise, if everyone(or at least most) can agree, than by proxy there constituents agree which you would have to conclude that most people agree.

If you just let one side make bills, then that other side is eventually going to counteract those bills, making the whole thing pointless.

[marty]

because theres only so much progressivism that the ballot box will put up with. i wouldve thought that was fairly obvious.
I wasn't really wondering. I was just putting it out there for others to think about

[puke o'hara]

Why is it that the only women ever voted into executive power are conservative?Like ... the president of Finland? ;)
Parliamentary government boggles my mind. How the hell do you expect to get anything done?Consensus. You either need to work together or pretty much nothing at all gets done. It works round 'ere ...

[Walnut]

Like ... the president of Finland? ;)

Hardly counts as a woman, or as a conservative.

Consensus. You either need to work together or pretty much nothing at all gets done. It works round 'ere ...

Eh. What's the point of having seperate parties, then, if they just work together?

[kreket]

When there is a minority government in a parliamentarian system, those in position puts the opposition against itself, in a bid game. Added to this is that someone who won much ground in the last election has a slight air of more legitimacy. Of course, there can still be taboo parties or a lack of alternatives. The Weimar Republic thaught us that.

Germany is a combination of a parliament, federation and ministries. From what I'm told, even when it is a government made up of solely one party, the deparments' ministries see themselves as ministers first and members of a 'governing council' second.

For very obvious reasons they avoid a central leader with a big "L", even if they have a prime minister as head of government and a Bundestag (the different states' and the federal assembly comes together) to elect a separate head of state. This last one is more of a powerfull symbol than a powerfull figure.

[Modest Genius]

aye. its actually a system inspired by US states, but tempered with proportional representation and a french-style prime minister (chancellor)

coalitions help build consensus between several parties (enough for a majority), and bargaining between the governments stance on issues where they disagree. its a good system in general, but does sometimes suffer from a lack of decisiveness and inertia

[GrosPoisson]

its a good system in general, but does sometimes suffer from a lack of decisiveness and inertia

Doesn't that describe every modern democracy in existence right now?

[Modest Genius]

Doesn't that describe every modern democracy in existence right now?not really. for example in the UK, if blair wants a new law theres pretty much nothing to stop him, since labour have majorities in both houses

he cant ride roughsod over public opinion and doesnt have to compromise with anyone, for example see the decision to go to war in iraq

[kreket]

Doesn't he have to win the majority in labour?


There are referendums too, for those complex and/or difficult issues. Same as in the US as far as I know.

[Modest Genius]

of course he needs his party to support him. thing is, if they dont, and ignore the whips too much, then theyll have their funding removed for the next election, and probably wont get relected. same as with any party.

[kreket]

Now we're disagreeing. AFAIK it is common for the cabinet to remove itself or be removed if parliament disagrees with it, or to choose to agree with parliament.

[Modest Genius]

not under first past the post it isnt. it sometimes happens in PR, but thats just because the cabinet needs support from several parties, which it can lose a party or two of and then become virtually powerless

[SOCOM-DELTA]

The thing is, that their government will be there just a long (I'm guessing). The fact that Bush is only going to be there for a little while longer isn't as important as the fact that he IS here now. Once he's gone, supposing a president takes power that they can get along with, Germany's parties will be changing their lines. The German public obviously want nothing to do with Bush, and they're going to vote according to that. Maybe they'll change later, but not now. 3 years is a long time.

In any event, I doubt Germany's future really want anything to do with the States. The EU is making a nice profit off itself and China, so I don't think they preticularly care.

IMO


may i also add that the majority of the American public wants nothing to do with Bush.

[puke o'hara]

Hardly counts as a woman, or as a conservative.ATOM ROFL. And your powers of reading have failed you there as well.
Eh. What's the point of having seperate parties, then, if they just work together?There's still the opposition, since not all parties go into the government, and different parties, representing different parts of the electorate will likely further the common interest rather nicely if they co-operate.