With all this global warming talk...

[StandingCow]

I had heard somewhere (could have been on these forums) that the temps going up are natural, due to the planet still comming out of the ice age.

Have any of you heard this? It makes perfect sense that the planet goes through cold and hot ages...

As we have already seen its causing more power storms, and if the above is true it will just get worse and worse over time.

[siddy]

I believe the global warming idea is that humans are negatively contributing to this warming process, and speeding it up way beyond it's natural progression.

[StandingCow]

I'm not saying that all the nasty shit we put into the air isn't doing bad things... but that the earth IS warming up by itself...

[Captain Colon]

I'm pretty sure nobody's ever disputed that fact D:

[Bone_Vulture]

I cannot say what the supposed natural temperature cycle of the Earth is, but I do have a problem with some people claiming that the human emissions have no effect on this phenomenon.

[StandingCow]

Ah well, I just thought it was kinda interesting

[Captain Colon]

I believe the sun also gets hotter as it ages :)

[Whoami88]

Then it will fucken explode wiping humanity from this shithole of a solar system out of existence.

I mean come on, were the only livible planet out of 9? In the universal sense we're living in the ghetto.

[Scraps]

Then it will fucken explode wiping humanity from this shithole of a solar system out of existence.

I mean come on, were the only livible planet out of 9? In the universal sense we're living in the ghetto.
Dont forget the huge expansion that it will undergo.

[Lusty_Muffins]

Sun's not expected to expire for another couple billions years or so IIRC.

It's too bad. I like hot weather :p

[Walnut]

I cannot say what the supposed natural temperature cycle of the Earth is, but I do have a problem with some people claiming that the human emissions have no effect on this phenomenon.

Well, some scientists have estimated that humans are responsible for less than 1/2 of 1% of global warming, which is insignificant.

[Bone_Vulture]

Well, some scientists have estimated that humans are responsible for less than 1/2 of 1% of global warming, which is insignificant.

I would love to see these figures.

[M123]

The earth is warming up and we better get ready for it.

[Walnut]

I would love to see these figures.

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Just how much of the "Greenhouse Effect" is caused by human activity?

It is about 0.28%, if water vapor is taken into account-- about 5.53%, if not.

[kreket]

Well, some scientists have estimated that humans are responsible for less than 1/2 of 1% of global warming, which is insignificant.

Scientists?

On what basis do they call themselves that? Unfounded Speculations 101?

Or is this one of them "the warming since the industrial age does not exceed the warming since the big bang" ones?

[Modest Genius]

this is dealt with rather well in the last IPCC report. noone should say a word about climate change who hasnt read it. http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/reports.htm (you want the third assessment report)

oh and are you trying to tell me these trends are natural? http://www.ipcc.ch/present/graphics/2001syr/small/02.01.jpg

I believe the sun also gets hotter as it ageswell, its a good thing science isnt based on belief then. because as far as we are aware, that is the opposite of the truth, at least in the long term. and we dont know the short term, because weve never been in a position to see it before

walnut, that data is highly suspect, on a quick glance that looks like a weird way of looking at the TOTAL emmisions, rather than their increase

[kreket]

It's always fun to see the other contents of a site that disreputes humanity's industrial effect on climate change.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/TableOfCont.html / http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb
PLANT FOSSILS OF WEST VIRGINIA. I wonder what a company called that does for a living.

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/OtherLinks.html This one seems to have a set built up around links to COAL PLANT INDUSTRY, Walnut. This little page here http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/Articles1.html has one link to a site about how environmentalist the COAL MINING SITE have acted when clearing up and how beneficial it was to the local community.

I think we've nailed were the scientific funding and objectivity went, eh?

[Bone_Vulture]

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

That site reeks of bias...

[Modest Genius]

oh yes, i forgot to mention. dont trust random websites on this one, theres WAY too many vested interests and conspiracy theorists. stick to reputable news sources or peer reviewed scientific papers

[Lord Kelvin]

oh yes, i forgot to mention. dont trust random websites on this one, theres WAY too many vested interests and conspiracy theorists. stick to reputable news sources or peer reviewed scientific papers
Agreed. Even some non-random sites may be biased. For example, earlier this year (about January or so) I was doing research on Social Security for a Government class project (mock elections), and I found the website for the Cato Institute, some Washington think-tank, and they said privatization of SS was good. As it turns out, privatization is bad and they were basically paid to say that it was good. So yeah, moral is, don't just go trusting sites, even if they seem credible.

[Walnut]

It's always fun to see the other contents of a site that disreputes humanity's industrial effect on climate change.

Well, of course. It's a biased site. As are most.

[kreket]

I may have come of as a bit raging there, but it was all good hearted fun of the stupidity a company's marketing department is capable of.

Many sites are biased. No reason to trust the bias. No reason to trust the bias of those who don't know better that in almost all cases come from one country when the scientific commissions of the G8, including said country's contribution of scientists, and the UN is against it. Not the unfailing word of God per se, but pretty close when ranking human houses of knowledge.

[Army GI]

Actually, we're due for another ice age.

And by due I don't mean like now, I mean give or take a thousand years or so.

We'll survive.

It'll be cool to see what kind of geologic changes the glaciers leave behind on the earth's surface when they melt away.

[Degree:N]

Another link in addition to those posted by Modest Genius:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/mg18625034.800

Oh, and if anyone wants to see the Great Barrier Reef you should go there before 2050.

[SWATJester_os]

Actually, we're due for another ice age.

And by due I don't mean like now, I mean give or take a thousand years or so.

We'll survive.

It'll be cool to see what kind of geologic changes the glaciers leave behind on the earth's surface when they melt away.

doubt WE'LL be seeing it.


What I hate is when people claim that humans are responsible for hurricanes.

[Toastar]

It'll be cool to see what kind of geologic changes the glaciers leave behind on the earth's surface when they melt away.

a lot of water I think

[pro kossu]

What I hate is when people claim that humans are responsible for hurricanes.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;309/5742/1844


We examined the number of tropical cyclones and cyclone days as well as tropical cyclone intensity over the past 35 years, in an environment of increasing sea surface temperature. A large increase was seen in the number and proportion of hurricanes reaching categories 4 and 5. The largest increase occurred in the North Pacific, Indian, and Southwest Pacific Oceans, and the smallest percentage increase occurred in the North Atlantic Ocean. These increases have taken place while the number of cyclones and cyclone days has decreased in all basins except the North Atlantic during the past decade.

[SWATJester_os]

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;309/5742/1844


Which has been conclusively proven by the NHC to be a result of variations in the Southern Oscillation and El Nino phenomenon

[Modest Genius]

conclusively proven? thats news to me, especially as the research is only a week or so old. got linkage?

[kreket]

It'll be cool to see what kind of geologic changes the glaciers leave behind on the earth's surface when they melt away.

May I insert a small ad here for Scandinavian tourism industry?

[phide]

The Sun is growing progressively hotter at a relatively rapid rate but the effects of these increases in the Sun's surface temperature are somewhat minor.

I don't think modern meteorological studies can conclude much of anything from any block of research less than a few hundred years or so. In the grand scheme of things, 35 years of research is a miniscule fiber in time. A mere grain of sand on a beach in the Earth's tepid history. Focusing on a 35 year block of time on Earth is like focusing on the torque of a particular engine in the 3103.213 to 3103.217 RPM range and attempting to determine trends of the entire powerband based on that limited range.

[SWATJester_os]

conclusively proven? thats news to me, especially as the research is only a week or so old. got linkage?

Will dig it up. Note that I'm not trying to explain global warming, just explaining that we're at a natural high of hurricane strength right now.

[solidsnake]

Humans survived the first ice age we can do it agian. And we will not see the glaciers melt because that process takes a hell of a long time.

[Thorium]

ya we are to blame but to what exstent is the normale question... to bad they seem to over look the more important question, what are we going do about it... i dont see how any one nation can do much of anything... and getting the world to agree on anything is next to impossable... so things (as always) are going to get a lot worse before any real atempt is made to combat the problem...
in the short term, plant trees. 2/3 of the US was once covered in forests now less than 1/4 of the US is covered in trees. lead by example seems the best way. of couse that is the root of the problem. developing nations want what we have and cutting down trees for fule and building is a very cost effective way to get them there. too bad it is only for the short term and can destroy all they worked so hard to build...


edit- removes bad info with the promise that i will look it up first next time

[kreket]

Humans survived the first ice age we can do it agian. And we will not see the glaciers melt because that process takes a hell of a long time.

They commonly go back and forth two meters a year when it is governed by local and normal weather variations.

In the arctic of Canada, I believe there are seas that are no longer covered by ice. A new imperial age has come as Canada and Denmark (with some sort of ownership over Greenland) are struggling over who will finally own the passage through the northern straits.

[Army GI]

doubt WE'LL be seeing it.


What I hate is when people claim that humans are responsible for hurricanes.
I hate that too. But I said a few thousand years from now so I know we won't be seeing it.

a lot of water I thinkNo, stupid, the advance and melting away of glaciers the size of continents cut through, create, destroy, or reform many of the landforms that we see now.

May I insert a small ad here for Scandinavian tourism industry?
be my guest

[Modest Genius]

Will dig it up. Note that I'm not trying to explain global warming, just explaining that we're at a natural high of hurricane strength right now.this is science, not law. the burden of proof lies with the NEW theory, not the authority. hence, its up to you to provide linkage and that linkage to provide proof, not me to defend the status quo

the sun had lots of Hy to burn (hy being the main part by far in a young star) therefore the sun burned with great intencity (hot enough that mars may have been liveable). but as Hy is changed to He the reation becomes "smothered" by the He. this causes a reduction in the rate the fussion occours in the sun. while at first there is a lowering in the temp of the sun it is soon on the rise...

this "smothering" lowers the outward push produced by fusion letting gravity reduce the diamiter of the suns core causeing an incress in presser and temp in the core of the sun untill it is hot enough and the presser high enough to fuss He. as more and more of the Hy recation gives over to the He reaction the tep incresses...
thorium, youre spouting pseudo-science, which is easy to tell since youre using Hy as hydrogen, which NO scientist trained at even a 16yr old level would do, let alone a professional. have you ever taken a course on elementary astrophysics? i have. and the He flash occurs at the point of expansion to a red giant ie a billion years time at least

although i agree about your point that its irrelevant WHO caused it, but what were going to do about it, your nonsensical pseudo-science gives proper evidence on this matter a bad name

[Thorium]

ouch. your right. had to look it up. learn something new yada yada. i feel bad now :(

[StandingCow]

I mean.. what if it wasnt due to us? The changes in the earth's temp that is.. what if we really dont know as much as we think and the earth goes through changes faster then we say?

And Im glad I wont be around for the next ICE age, I hate the damn cold.

[Bone_Vulture]

I mean.. what if it wasnt due to us? The changes in the earth's temp that is.. what if we really dont know as much as we think and the earth goes through changes faster then we say?

The influence that mankind has over the ecosystem has risen exponentially over the last several centuries - I wouldn't be surprised if we've altered the planet's natural temperature cycles.

[Prowl]

Standing cow, the deforestation is due to us

The mercury levels in fish are due to us

The collapse of fish stocks is due to overfishing by us

How significant an effect human activity is on global warming IS up to debate, but the evidence so far points to us having a measurable effect

The ozone depletion is due to us (CFCs are hardly blamable on someone else)

These enviromental issues are all the result of mankinds works, it's easy to see where we have cut down forests (on an epic scale) where we have damned rivers and other such events. How anyone can claim otherwise makes my head hurt.

I'm no tree hugger, but I do think we need to reverse the trend. Greening our cities would be both attractive and a good thing. Reducing the amount of CO2 we pour into the atmosphere (and all the other nasties) can only be a good thing.

What annoys me is people defending slow progress based on the cost. They say installing scrubbers and solar panels is detrimental to our economies, but surely the money spent will go to the people who carry out the work, thus while there are increased costs to some companies, others will be raking the money in (which is taxed) and provide jobs. It's simply a movement of money from one set of people to another. Managing this so that more people benefit should be the issue, not attempting to dismiss the issue so that the status quo is maintained.

Doesn't help when people in positions of power serve to profit from doing so :rolleyes:

[FloppyDisk]

What annoys me is people defending slow progress based on the cost. They say installing scrubbers and solar panels is detrimental to our economies, but surely the money spent will go to the people who carry out the work, thus while there are increased costs to some companies, others will be raking the money in (which is taxed) and provide jobs. It's simply a movement of money from one set of people to another. Managing this so that more people benefit should be the issue, not attempting to dismiss the issue so that the status quo is maintained.


Scrubbers are already installed. Solar panels have been out of style since the Carter administration because there aren't any tax incentives anymore.

And Kyoto would give companies just another reason to offshore factory workers' jobs or send them south of the border to another non-signatory: Mexico.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

I mean.. what if it wasnt due to us? The changes in the earth's temp that is.. what if we really dont know as much as we think and the earth goes through changes faster then we say?

And Im glad I wont be around for the next ICE age, I hate the damn cold.


i dearly hope our descendants are smart enough to get off of this god-forsaken rock before that happens.