So now it's Louisiana's fault

[Lord Kelvin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050927/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_brown_hk4_7;_ylt=AqPCUiaS0wt_F.s9GiKmO8kbL isB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Now Brown is blaming Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin for the tragedy. I don't know to what extent what he says is true, but I do remember someone here saying that Nagin wouldn't commence evacuation until right before the storm. I'm not going to judge right away, since I don't know all the facts, so I'll let you guys discuss it a bit.

[Stig]

"So I guess you want me to be the superhero, to step in there and take everyone out of New Orleans," Brown said.

"What I wanted you to do is do your job and coordinate," Shays retorted.
LOLSZ!!?

This is almost hilarious stuff.

[GrosPoisson]

How do people this high up get away with saying this kind of garbage?

[Lord Kelvin]

How do people this high up get away with saying this kind of garbage?
It sorta depends, really. I don't know all the facts, but if what he says is true, then it might not really be his fault. But then again, he might be lying, or trying to spread the blame. Is there someone who can check up on if what he says really is true?

[waisted menkey]

i sorta read the article CNN.com had on it. not quite sure what to say myself either. one thing I do remember, is back about 1 1/2 weeks after Kat hit and people started to point the finger pretty hard, nagin said something along the lines of "I take partial responsiblility in this matter. I trusted in the fact that if we could hold out for a couple days the US Government would come to rescue us. I will not make the same mistake again. We will purchase helicopters and deepwater vehicals and take care of ourselves and the evacuation next time."

that kind made me laugh.

[GrosPoisson]

It sorta depends, really. I don't know all the facts, but if what he says is true, then it might not really be his fault. But then again, he might be lying, or trying to spread the blame. Is there someone who can check up on if what he says really is true?

To be clear, I didn't just mean Brown, I meant everyone who's an official of some standing in that article. Perhaps it's just me being naive, but I like to think that state governors (in addition to directors of FEMA and Homeland Security) should be competent on some level.

[[Political] Slayer]

It's everyones fault, not one person's in particular, the residents should have fucking left, the mayor should of had buses running to evacuate the people unable to leave, FEMA should of responded quicker, the National Guard(the governors responsibility I might add) should have been there the day after, if not the day of the storm making landfall, alot of people are to blame. FEMA, by the way, was geared up nowadays to respond to terrorist attacks, so a hurricane this bad caught them off guard, not that it makes it right.

[Lord Kelvin]

Given the amount of warning that everyone had, I'm sort of inclined to agree. Everyone's at fault to one degree or another. But what ticks me off is that some of the people are trying to shunt the responsibility onto whoever is a politically advantageous target, whether it's Nagin blaming FEMA or Brown blaming Homeland Security. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own mistakes? Oh yeah - that's political suicide.

[[Political] Slayer]

Hey, Bush took responsibility, you gotta give him that.

[Lord Kelvin]

Well yes, he did. But I don't think he's as much to blame as the people who could've mobilized the aid effort faster, like Governor Blanco, Mayor Nagin, and (former) Director Brown.

[[Political] Slayer]

agreed, I think Bush is one of the least responsible, but at least he took the initiative to step up to the plate and acknowledge that he screwed up.

[StandingCow]

I didnt like how people blamed bush for this, the reason mayors and governors are in the postition they are is to take care of situations like this one.

[phide]

You know whose fault it is? The people that neglected to evacuate themselves in face of a category four hurricane. That's who. I don't go to the Bronx, get shot and complain about how slow the government is to help me get out of the Bronx.

People are responsible for their own lives. That's really all there is to it.

[Toastar]

You know whose fault it is? The people that neglected to evacuate themselves in face of a category four hurricane. That's who. I don't go to the Bronx, get shot and complain about how slow the government is to help me get out of the Bronx.

People are responsible for their own lives. That's really all there is to it.

Not quite, you pay taxes to a government, you expect to get back something more than roadways and lining a senators coffer when you're in trouble.

Not everyone CAN get out; most of New Orleans was poor (from what I understand) and couldn't afford to get out (walk away from a cat 4 hurricane? suuuure).

All levels of the government (muncipalities to federal) are responsible as well as the individuals.

If people are responsible for their own lives, why are you arrested and put in jail for not paying taxes because they feel their perfectly capable of handling situations themselves but want to live in a nice house they build for themselves out of hardwork.

[StandingCow]

Yea, apparently alot didnt have cars...

[BlindSite]

The entire situation was a massive fuck up on all parties. Out of curiosity would many of these people have seen a hurricane of this size in their lives?

It wouldn't surprise me if most people thought, how big can it be? We'll be right. Whilst I do think the higher ups had a lot of responsibility to at least try to get the people out of there can they be blamed for the die hards who did, die hard, to quote one LA native pastor.

More should have been done, but on the same token I think that the people of Louisiana could have done a little more to help themselves.

[StandingCow]

I probly woulda been one of those people trying to weather it out...

Well at least here in NJ I would have.. knowing how New Orleans was designed (freaking pool) maybe not..

[phide]

Not everyone CAN get out; most of New Orleans was poor (from what I understand) and couldn't afford to get out (walk away from a cat 4 hurricane? suuuure).

Did the federal government make them poor? Did the local government make them poor? Taxes can be a bitch, but really aren't too steep for the average annual income levels in the areas that Katrina hit the hardest.

Yeah, paying taxes and governmental fees can be a real pain in the ass when your income is basically nill, but these things don't really make anyone poor. The tax rates at the federal and state tax brackets at the poverty level are laughably low compared to many other modern nations.

State, local and federal governments don't make anyone live anywhere. The people that had residence in the most vulnerable areas weren't living there mandatorily so. When you live in a place below sea level next to a pretty turbulent sea, you're going to run into problems every once in a while. It's not the place of government to give everyone $2000 debit cards and rebuild homes and businesses at serious cost to ordinary tax payers.

If people are responsible for their own lives, why are you arrested and put in jail for not paying taxes because they feel their perfectly capable of handling situations themselves but want to live in a nice house they build for themselves out of hardwork.

Paying federal income taxes (as well as social security and medicare/medicaid) is a federal law that applies to pretty much every individual in America. If you talk to any good cop, he'll tell you that he doesn't agree with many of the things he (or she) must enforce, but he enforces them because it's the law of the land. People are responsible for themselves within the confines of law.

[Toastar]

so you're saying people that don't have money for transportation are fucked and their paying taxes only paid for a police department that is only 2/3 real?

If you're born in America into a poor family you still have to pay the taxes even if you don't want to life there...you cant afford to move out of the country so if they gotta pay the government, they should get protection in return.

[waisted menkey]

Did the federal government make them poor? Did the local government make them poor? Taxes can be a bitch, but really aren't too steep for the average annual income levels in the areas that Katrina hit the hardest.

Yeah, paying taxes and governmental fees can be a real pain in the ass when your income is basically nill, but these things don't really make anyone poor. The tax rates at the federal and state tax brackets at the poverty level are laughably low compared to many other modern nations.

State, local and federal governments don't make anyone live anywhere. The people that had residence in the most vulnerable areas weren't living there mandatorily so. When you live in a place below sea level next to a pretty turbulent sea, you're going to run into problems every once in a while. It's not the place of government to give everyone $2000 debit cards and rebuild homes and businesses at serious cost to ordinary tax payers.

Paying federal income taxes (as well as social security and medicare/medicaid) is a federal law that applies to pretty much every individual in America. If you talk to any good cop, he'll tell you that he doesn't agree with many of the things he (or she) must enforce, but he enforces them because it's the law of the land. People are responsible for themselves within the confines of law.

have you ever been poor? the government didn't make them poor but to think general society isn't somewhat involved is complete ingornace to me (no offense meant). though a lot of people are able to bust out of poverty, not every is able to do that, and it isn't always "their fault." being born and raise in a horriblely poor area (not nessecarily referencing N.O.) can have a serious drain on you. whether you like it or not, growin' up in the ghetto or the barrio seriously impacts a person and it can be very easy to get sucked into the lifestyle which surrounds said locations...even if you don't want to get involved, it's everywhere and you don't always have a choice. "you always have a choice"...yea, if gettin' beat up every day, given broken bones and GSW or death is a "choice" then sure, you have a choice. i'd rather get into the gang then have them kick my ass daily and rape my sister. but hey, you don't care

and how are people supposed to pack up their lives and move when they are poor? where are you supposed to go? where will take you in? how the hell are you going to get there? with what money are you to fund this process? just leave everything behind? what are you supposed to do when you get to your new location? it's not as easy as your statement might make it seem.

i'm sorry, but to say it's all their fault for being poor is rediculous and completely blind to some of the issues which plague modern society in america.

[phide]

I've said this before in another post, but I'll say it again so that you fellows that disagree with me can form a solid, logical counter-point to my argument.

Any American individual not limited by mental or physical handicaps, raised in any background and of any race, under any social and economic conditions, can accumulate essentially any level of wealth he or she chooses. This is naturally assuming that parents didn't inhibit or restrict any level of public education.

And for the record, I never stated that the level of income really had anything to do with the problem. I stated that people chose to live below sea level, next to the turbulent and natural disaster prone area of New Orleans and chose not to evacuate with a pretty reasonable warning. When you want to run with the bulls, sometimes you have to deal with the horns.

[FaKToR]

Any American individual not limited by mental or physical handicaps, raised in any background and of any race, under any social and economic conditions, can accumulate essentially any level of wealth he or she chooses.
At best you can argue there are not restrictions that mandate one cannot make as much as one chooses. However, you cannot argue that everyone is capable of making as much as one chooses for varying reasons, most important of which you choose to ignore factors beyond their control.

And for the record, I never stated that the level of income really had anything to do with the problem. I stated that people chose to live below sea level, next to the turbulent and natural disaster prone area of New Orleans and chose not to evacuate with a pretty reasonable warning.
And I disagree, I think that position is horrible misrepresentation of the situation and a callous stance.

[marty]

Haha, I've seen this so many times...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

I thought libertarians weren't idealistic and naive ^_^. Sorry phide, but the world is not just. The poor got the shaft, and just because you can imagine how to get out of it or avoid it, doesn't mean it's their fault.

Shit man, I've had a lot of shitty things happen to me by just plain bad luck. Just because I can't blame a person for my misfortunes doesn't mean I have to blame myself. (Hint: I was born in the upper class, and I am currently with the lower classes -- but I've been crawling my way back up).

[phide]

I can't really say I fit into any political mold. The libertarian ideals seem to be most closely related to my own, but it's no exact fit.

For most people, unlucky misfortunes tend to be pretty minor. Was Katrina an unlucky misfortune for New Orleans residents? Absolutely. That cosmic idea of luck has a way of balancing itself out over any period of time, though. Instead of getting pounded by moderately powerful hurricanes repeatedly, as is historically typical of that region, the gulf states suffered one massive blow to the chin. Call it fate or call it karma, or call it whatever else you wish, but it's still the same story.

Is it the poor's fault they're dying and diseased? If you really want to play the blame game, it's Katrina's fault, but a hurricane's a non-living, unchoosing entity. Katrina did what hurricanes do and there are all sorts of physical and quantum variables that determined why it was so gosh-durn strong. When you can't particularly pin the blame on someone, you have to shoulder at least some of it on yourself. When you trip over a pebble and bust your ass, it isn't the pebble at fault. It isn't that asshole that put that pebble there either. You can blame it on cosmic luck or karma, or you could brush yourself off and say, "should have been more careful" or, "I really need to pay more attention to what I'm doing."

All in all, I'm getting a little tired of people throwing the poor black card. "Look at that! They're poor and they're black, so why isn't anyone helping the poor black people! Why didn't the government save them quickly enough!"

[FaKToR]

You can blame it on cosmic luck or karma, or you could brush yourself off and say, "should have been more careful" or, "I really need to pay more attention to what I'm doing."
So now people need to take responsibility for all that befalls them without aid or assistance? If we have reason to believe that people are the not sole cause for their lot in life, then I it is fair that people should in turn expect positive aid for which the are not solely responsible. The universe might not be fair by default, but that doesn't mean we should settle with it.

[kreket]

You can blame it on cosmic luck or karma, or you could brush yourself off and say, "should have been more careful" or, "I really need to pay more attention to what I'm doing."

All in all, I'm getting a little tired of people throwing the poor black card. "Look at that! They're poor and they're black, so why isn't anyone helping the poor black people! Why didn't the government save them quickly enough!"


And why shouldn't the government help someone who are poor while black? Why shouldn't the government help anyone who are poor?

Why shouldn't the governments of the city, state and federation have saved those people quicker? There were several mistakes done. Even for the highly unusual situation it was, too many mistakes are too many mistakes at the end of the day.

[Medlar]

Fuck New Orleans. Seriously. It's a cesspit. My dad and I both agreed upon that as we were evacuating and listening to the radio. They were interviewing people in the French Quarter on the Sunday night we were evacuating (the storm hit Monday morning; we live in Ocean Springs, Mississippi, which is less than 50 miles of where the eye made landfall), and the most common response from people being interviewed was, "We're gonna keep partying."

Some of them even got violent on the news reporters (who suggested they should evacuate, given that a cat 5 'cane was coming).

And according to a number of people I talked to, Bush himself told Nagin that he should evacuate a number of days in advance of the hurricane's landfall. Of course, Nagin is the mayor of New Orleans (the local government, police force... everything in that city is fucked up and degenerate as far as I'm concerned.), so he sat around and did nothing. About 3 days later, we have Nagin on the radio swearing and complaining like the scumbag he has been exposed to be.

And fuck the racial card. The majority of New Orleans is black. Or ignorant. Or both. Their racial background didn't fail them. Their leadership did.

But to be honest, what could have been done? I remember learning of this hurricane approximately 48 hours in advance of it making landfall (but that's because at the time I was always at work). It happened so fast, that it couldn't have ended much better than it did.

[Col.Kurtz]

yea i mean what kind of dumbasses build a city below sea level for christ sake, if they rebuild i will personally go down there and flood it again myself


and medlar is going to help

[phide]

They aren't dumbasses for building a city below sea level, they simply took a chance. Meteorological studies had only advanced so far, and it's certainly possible that no city planner had any real idea of the risks. However, those who've been building in New Orleans and the surrounding areas have been aware of the risks for what probably amounts to fifty years.

[GoatChomper]

yea i mean what kind of dumbasses build a city below sea level for christ sake.....
Oh, I dunno.....maybe the people who run and support a seaport at the mouth of the continent's biggest river and don't feel like commuting 100+ miles one-way every day to work?

Maybe some of you people need to have science dropped, so here it is.....seaports tend to be built at or near sea level. A subtle pattern begins to emerge, no?

[Medlar]

Oh, I dunno.....maybe the people who run and support a seaport at the mouth of the continent's biggest river and don't feel like commuting 100+ miles one-way every day to work?

Maybe some of you people need to have science dropped, so here it is.....seaports tend to be built at or near sea level. A subtle pattern begins to emerge, no?

Yeah. New Orleans is a major industrial/economic/cultural hub here in the south. It's rather unfortunate that it was built on what one newspaper here said "The worst possible building spot". "You could throw a dart 999 times at anywhere in the US and not find a worse spot to build a city."

It doesn't change the fact that the general population of New Orleans are scumbags.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

Given the amount of warning that everyone had, I'm sort of inclined to agree. Everyone's at fault to one degree or another. But what ticks me off is that some of the people are trying to shunt the responsibility onto whoever is a politically advantageous target, whether it's Nagin blaming FEMA or Brown blaming Homeland Security. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own mistakes? Oh yeah - that's political suicide.


speaking of early warning, I do recall someone (I believe the governor? or the mayer of New Orleans, maybe?) saying several years ago that if enough water surged, the levees would break.

if anyone can dig up any info to substantiate this, please post asap.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

yea i mean what kind of dumbasses build a city below sea level for christ sake, if they rebuild i will personally go down there and flood it again myself


and medlar is going to help
i'll do ya one better; i'll list two COUNTRIES where much of their developed landmass is below sea-level:

denmark, holland.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

I've said this before in another post, but I'll say it again so that you fellows that disagree with me can form a solid, logical counter-point to my argument.

Any American individual not limited by mental or physical handicaps, raised in any background and of any race, under any social and economic conditions, can accumulate essentially any level of wealth he or she chooses. This is naturally assuming that parents didn't inhibit or restrict any level of public education.


good point (yes i edited out the last paragraph because it does not pertain to my response here).

however, generally speaking, a person that falls into that very narrow loop is probably already wealthy and coincidentally happened to inherit good genes and, most probably, a solid head on their shoulders.

"not limited by mental or physical handicaps"
this, essentially, is just fate; currently, not enough is known about genetics to actually do something about inherited mental or physical deformities.

"under any social and economic conditions"
it is generally true that a person can become a billionaire regardless of race. however, we still live in a society that, at least in some minor regards, may still bear some racial bias (depends upon who you are dealing with, and what fields of study or industry you involve yourself with). unfortunately, no matter what, it is becoming increasingly more difficult for the common man to rise to the top because wealth is simply being passed on from one generation to the next, not through social or economic reform but through familial inheritance. that is, when people hoard their wealth but do not give their just portion back (i.e. properly paying taxes), the cost of living increases for the little guy because there is less money going around. and when a poor man pays even more money for the basics, he becomes destitute.

clear example my friend made:
he used to be able to walk home with $20. with that $20, he could buy himself a subway sandwich and fill up his car's gas tank. now, he has to bring $40 with him, spend $8 on that sandwich (which used to cost $4 or $5), and spend the remainder (and then some) trying to fill up his gas tank.

the point i'm trying to make is that when one inherits a large sum of money, they need no longer worry about paying for everyday needs, and they'll probably do whatever they can to hang onto that money. and when wealthy people hang onto that money, there's generally less for the common man.

yes, i know it's a stretch of a conclusion. feel free to debate my points at will, but please try to keep it civil.

i think i missed my point though... i'll edit the post later once i gather my thoughts a bit more. :)

but i can give y'all a good book to read: Perfectly Legal, by David Cay Johnston.

[Medlar]

speaking of early warning, I do recall someone (I believe the governor? or the mayer of New Orleans, maybe?) saying several years ago that if enough water surged, the levees would break.

if anyone can dig up any info to substantiate this, please post asap.

There's no need to dig up sources. It's been general knowledge for a long time that New Orleans was a city living on borrowed time.