"Iraq: our fatal blunder"

[Bone_Vulture]

"Mission accomplished" indeed. :mad:

An article by New Statesman (http://www.newstatesman.com/200510030006)

British forces in the south of Iraq have ceded power to Islamic radical militias. The police recruits they have armed and trained are now their enemies.

Note: the site has a stupid nag policy, you can only open the article once for free, after that you have to dance past a "day pass policy" similar to Salon.com.

[BlindSite]

I would think this is more a failure of the Iraqi people than the Coalition. IMO it says a lot more about the people of the region than the Coalition. I won't say what I would like to since then I'd be vilified as xenophobic and racist.

[Bone_Vulture]

Clearly the fault of local and state authorities.

[BlindSite]

I think you missed my point. Hardly something unusual.

[Bone_Vulture]

I think you missed my point. Hardly something unusual.

You said it's more the fault of the Iraqi people than the coalition, and that the article says more of the people of the region than of the coalition.

So far that's the only supposed point you've made. I'd be interested to hear the part which would apparently make you look "xenophobic and racist", for I assume there lies your actual point. What's preventing you from saying it?

[Medlar]

Yeah, the British should have brainwashed everyone better.

[Whoami88]

Something about them being muslim eh Blindsite?:(


Keep in mind that arabs are only 18% of all Muslims in the world. Maybe I should classify all Christians as KKK loving, slave owning people.:rolleyes:

[kreket]

This might have been what Swatjester was referring to earlier. He said something about a militia they [he] had been in firefights with. I eagerly await any nonclassified comments of his.

And this caught my eyes:

August last year, a freelance journalist, James Brandon, was kidnapped from the same Diafa Hotel by abductors wearing police uniform. It would be easy to buy or fake the costumes, but the sense that the Iraqi police were indeed complicit was underlined when Brandon escaped and fled to a police station - only to be handed back to the kidnappers.

With some of the other stuff in there, this really explains why those soldiers a while back would attack that prison.

[kreket]

Very good article, btw. Thanks for showing it around.

[Bone_Vulture]

Very good article, btw. Thanks for showing it around.

No problem.

How about giving us the straight dope, BlindSite?

[s_qwert63]

I would think this is more a failure of the Iraqi people than the Coalition. IMO it says a lot more about the people of the region than the Coalition. I won't say what I would like to since then I'd be vilified as xenophobic and racist.


Hmm, blame everyone but not us?
Right, soon I bet Tony Blair will get the blame for the whole war :D

[DunNa]

I think what blindsite is trying to say is something kinda along these lines.

A man gives a homeless man 10 dollars so he can get some food/do whatever. Then the homeless man goes buys a knife comes back and stabs the man that gave him the money.

Whos at fault for the man getting stabbed? The man or the homeless man?

[s_qwert63]

I think what blindsite is trying to say is something kinda along these lines.

A man gives a homeless man 10 dollars so he can get some food/do whatever. Then the homeless man goes buys a knife comes back and stabs the man that gave him the money.

Whos at fault for the man getting stabbed? The man or the homeless man?


But you're missing one point, the man who gave money to the homeless man is an invader in the eyes of the homeless man.

[M123]

And the homeless man had a reputation for stabbing people.

[Bone_Vulture]

And the homeless man had a reputation for stabbing people.

And also, the homeless man is also squatting on a very crucial piece of property. ;)

[Stig]

But you're missing one point, the man who gave money to the homeless man is an invader in the eyes of the homeless man.
And this justifies the stabbing?

[Stalin]

It's not just the South; there are shitbags all over Iraq that get the training and then just disappear back into the militia.

[Lord Kelvin]

That's kind of worrisome. As was stated above, it looks like the only solution to this would lie in the local politicians and religious leaders.

[BlindSite]

Well since you're all bitching and just dying to hear my explanation I will give you this.

No where else in the world have I seen or heard examples of a people willing to give up their chance at freedom, no matter how its delivered in exchange for a futile cause usually in conjunction with, money or religion.

Call me racist of xenophobic I could really care less.

[Bone_Vulture]

No where else in the world have I seen or heard examples of a people willing to give up their chance at freedom, no matter how its delivered in exchange for a futile cause usually in conjunction with, money or religion.

OMG RACCYST?! :eek:

No, really - this is the racist part? I was expecting stuff like nuking the Mecca or something.

I found this article, titled Idiot Abroad (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_09_25_digbysblog_archive.html#112806134989552 833) (thanks POE) to be a good read on some of the reasons why America's Freedom tour in the Middle East hasn't quite succeeded.

[StandingCow]

I still don't know why we thought that people that have been taught and trained to hate westerners... would welcome us with open arms...

If this is indeed true... and even the people we have now trained are turning on us, and its widespread... we need to GTFO.

[kreket]

No where else in the world have I seen or heard examples of a people willing to give up their chance at freedom, no matter how its delivered in exchange for a futile cause usually in conjunction with, money or religion.

Look, you generalise extremists towards the entire populace. We don't know the status with the Shia precisely (or maybe we do, I haven't seen any indeepth analysis of the election that I remember), the Sunni are unlikely to be all baathists and the kurds - well from what the media have fed me they form the backbone of the local armed forces supporting the regime. The article in question here do claim that the sardr militia has backing from past actions, but how large it extends I do not know.

And this is nothing compared to das reich.

[Stig]

I still don't know why we thought that people that have been taught and trained to hate westerners... would welcome us with open arms...

If this is indeed true... and even the people we have now trained are turning on us, and its widespread... we need to GTFO.
No, we need to stick with it and make them not hate us anymore. Letting them continue to act in ignorance is hardly going to change or help thing.

[DunNa]

No, we need to stick with it and make them not hate us anymore.

And how do you suggest we do this? Staying there is pissing them off, leaving and not coming back wouln't do much besides make them realise violent resistance works. We try and rebuild there country but we're getting attacked while we try so that doesn't seem so viable either. Sure we can just leave and chuck alot of money at them with notes saying "please don't hate us here have another couple billion ^_^".

[Lord Kelvin]

And how do you suggest we do this? Staying there is pissing them off, leaving and not coming back wouln't do much besides make them realise violent resistance works. We try and rebuild there country but we're getting attacked while we try so that doesn't seem so viable either. Sure we can just leave and chuck alot of money at them with notes saying "please don't hate us here have another couple billion ^_^".
The main problem here seems to be either that the religious extremists there are using the Qu'ran to incite hate against the "infidels" when in reality the Qu'ran actually preaches nothing of the sort. Might be something that's unique to the region, but maybe it could be sorted out in time once the religious leaders decide not to incite hate. Either that or we could use the Qu'ran against the extremists and denounce them for violating the Qu'ran (by inciting violence), though that's at best a very long shot.

[Whoami88]

Well since you're all bitching and just dying to hear my explanation I will give you this.

No where else in the world have I seen or heard examples of a people willing to give up their chance at freedom, no matter how its delivered in exchange for a futile cause usually in conjunction with, money or religion.

Call me racist of xenophobic I could really care less.

How is that racist?

[Stig]

And how do you suggest we do this?
No idea. Obviously, we can't just kill everyone. But talking isn't helping either.
There are people out there better then me at figuring this sort of stuff out already. I'll let them worry about it.

Either that or we could use the Qu'ran against the extremists and denounce them for violating the Qu'ran (by inciting violence), though that's at best a very long shot.
We already know that that doesn't work. There was a guy who tried to do that, and they killed him for speaking out against them. It's ridiculous.

[StandingCow]

Basically, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place... damned if we do and damned if we dont...

Glad I dont have to decide how to fix this.

[BlindSite]

Look, you generalise extremists towards the entire populace.


No, that is how you interpret what I am stating. If I wanted to go through every goddamn minority just to keep the morons who like to flag generalisation every thirty seconds I would be here all night.

[kreket]

The term "a people" is not a general statement of the people of a country or region, but specificly targets a group of named partisans on one particular side. That's good to have cleared up.

Still wondering, but now about that moron comment.. ..anyone in specific? Another thing, why would naming the Sardr militia and Sunni insurgents be taken as racist?

I feel sorry for the countries with larger contributions in this "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Anyone else getting vibes from N. Ireland over this? It might just be that the article mentions the British that triggers this, but.. There is a split between people by religions, standing militia that "polices" people and general bombings and violence that seem to stretch out over time. Much is different and I'm positive someone else would be better apt at pointing those out, beyond the obvious such as suicide bombings, the difference in religions and how Baath was authoritarian.

[BlindSite]

My point is that not only the sunni or the Sardr are the ones so easily swayed, throughout history the entire geographical region has been synonomous with swindling, untrustworthy, violent people.

Many times reading accounts and articles written in various journals about the people of the nation of Iraq and the surrounding soverignties I labled the authors saying things in a similar vein to the above as xenophobic and racist but now as history unfolds before our eyes it seems to be that the opinions of such authors are not too far off.

[HodgeMASHEEN MkIII]

No where else in the world have I seen or heard examples of a people willing to give up their chance at freedom, no matter how its delivered in exchange for a futile cause usually in conjunction with, money or religion.

Call me racist of xenophobic I could really care less.

I'm not so sure that the people in question put the same value on the "freedom" you speak of, the same "freedom" and freedoms that you and I enjoy and take for granted every day. The Iraqi people have just never had an oppurtunity at "freedom". Perhaps they are unfamiliar with the whole concept of "freedom" as we like to think of it.

Think of when Karen Hughes went to Saudi Arabia, and when asking a Saudi woman what it felt like not to be able to vote or drive, the the Saudi telling her she really doesn't mind (Hughes was aghast, btw).

It's a whole different culture, with far different values, don't get on their case so bad if they immediately don't pounce on a chance to simply vote.

[BlindSite]

Interesting point, take the evil they know over the perceived evil they do not.

I'll get on their case however if they attempt to prevent people who should get the choice from making the choice.

[kreket]

This is very problematic. It's an obviously absurd statement, but why should not the western woman enjoy the freedom of the Hijab? Think about it; in Afghanistan a woman might need a Burka to be free to move around. The same issue was at hand in France. The Young Male Idiots Association among the "second-generation immigrants" thought rape was a good thing to give a muslim girl walking about without her hijab.

[kreket]

My point is that not only the sunni or the Sardr are the ones so easily swayed, throughout history the entire geographical region has been synonomous with swindling, untrustworthy, violent people.

The main difference from the west is that the institution of shopkeeping and bargaining have lasted longer and that democracy haven't reached them all.

Fishermen in Norway were abused by shopkeepers until they organised into monopolies and unions. I'm not joking around here, some citypeople were more or less regionally based racists back then. You see the same thing about "southern gun-toting rednecks" today, but the difference is distinct: noone claims in a book reviewthat it is unrealistic because peasants are presented as capable of higher thinking. There are no genealogist today trying to find the missing link between city people and monkeys, walking around three miles out of town.

That was what went on in Europe for the two last centuries.

On democracy.. Well, the Arab intellectual knew a lot more about democracy than his European equivalent in the 11th century. We've got our knowledge from them on these concepts. Granted, we've got a LOT more experience in being "democrats", but the concept originated in Greece and the knowledge was kept safe in the former empire of Arabia.

[SWATJester_os]

This might have been what Swatjester was referring to earlier. He said something about a militia they [he] had been in firefights with. I eagerly await any nonclassified comments of his.

And this caught my eyes:



With some of the other stuff in there, this really explains why those soldiers a while back would attack that prison.

Couldn't tell ya, can't read the article.

[Bone_Vulture]

Couldn't tell ya, can't read the article.

Huh? Fine, I copy & pasted the whole thing, it's under spoiler so it wont bother the rest of the thread.

British forces in the south of Iraq have ceded power to Islamic radical militias. The police recruits they have armed and trained are now their enemies. By Stephen Grey

It was at about 3am when they came to Muhammed's home in the poor Khalija el-Arabi district of Basra and took him away. "There were about 20 men who burst through the door," said his brother Faisal. "Some of them were wearing police uniform. Others were in commando jackets and others wore civilian clothes," he said. That was New Year's Eve 2003; Muhammed has not been seen since. His crime had been to be a junior member of the Ba'ath Party, even though his family members were no friends of Saddam Hussein's regime. For this, like many others before him in Basra, he paid with his life.

Faisal was able to track Muhammed's movements as far as the headquarters of what the Iraqi police were then calling their intelligence department, though their British "mentors" referred to it more discreetly as the Special Operations Department.

When I visited the intelligence department at Jamiat Police Station, I found prisoners stiff with fear, bound and gagged, their heads resting on a concrete wall. On that wall was a poster of the former Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini.

More than 18 months after that visit, that same police station was in the news worldwide, for it was there that two SAS soldiers were bound and gagged, and British armoured vehicles broke down a wall during a rescue operation. According to some reports, the SAS men were engaged in an undercover operation to track Iranian agents operating in the city, and after their capture they were handed by Iraqi police directly into the hands of extremist militias.

Violence in Basra comes in waves, so it is hard to see the long-term trends, but it seems clear now that the city - which in April 2003 welcomed the British army with open arms - is becoming more dangerous both for coalition troops and for any westerners. In the past two months two journalists who investigated police corruption have been killed, while insurgents have developed more powerful roadside bombs to use against British patrols.

For politicians in Westminster, the idea that Basra's new British-trained police force might be, to some degree, in league with Britain's enemies seems to have come as a surprise, prompting some to demand a hastened withdrawal. Yet most insiders have known it all along; the religious militias that now threaten British forces have been the hidden hand. They have largely controlled the city since its liberation from Saddam Hussein. The dilemma for the British was always whether to confront or tolerate these forces. One British officer summed it up: "It's not that the extremists have infiltrated Basra's police. They run it."

Since taking over Basra, the British army has been forced to play a dangerous game. Though the level of insurgency it has faced has been lower than that faced by the Americans in northern Iraq, the British forces' potential armed opponents have acquired critical jobs all around them, in the civil administration and the police.

At one police station where British soldiers were conducting basic training in the safe use of AK-47s, an Iraqi recruit noted: "They [the British] are really only giving us the most simple training and weapons, because they know that one day we might be fighting them." At Jamiat last January, the deputy commander, Abbas Abdel Ali, was equally open when I asked him how the station acquired recruits. "From the Badr and Sadr forces," he said. These are the main Shia militias: the Badr Brigade (armed wing of the Iranian-backed Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or Sciri) and the Sadr army, the more radical of the two groups, which fought a brief war with the coalition forces in April 2004 and is led by Moqtada al-Sadr.

The British soon learned what this meant. They tried to close down the intelligence unit, to remove extremists and train the police in interrogation techniques that did not involve torture - but this drove the worst abuses underground. They discovered a new torture centre hidden in an abandoned nightclub next to a police station. Some men were prosecuted - but not the senior officers who probably ordered these activities. Night after night, meanwhile, the bodies of former Ba'athists, or Christians involved in the alcohol trade, were found dumped on the streets. Witnesses reported that the gangs responsible sometimes wore police uniform.

The parties and the militias differ from one another in a number of ways, including their attitude to the British. The Badr Brigade and its Sciri party, though backed by Iran and keen to establish a new religious state in Iraq, have tended to be reluctant to confront the British. For this reason they have been tolerated as a bulwark against even more extreme elements.



In May, when the uprising by the Sadr militia spread to Basra, I watched from the roof of the Diafa Hotel as the British army fought gun battles with Sadr militias. In broad daylight, Warrior armoured vehicles fired cannon across the Shatt al-Arab River. Though a few of the Iraqi policemen held firm, most melted away at the first sign of trouble. Their AK-47s would have been no match for the rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns of the militiamen, it is true, but the truth, known to all, was that many of the militia were drawn from the police itself.

On the night of that uprising, the British commander and the governor of Basra held a press conference to announce that the trouble was over and the threat from the Sadr forces had been exaggerated. The officials had arrived by a secure back door, so they did not see what journalists saw: a large poster of Moqtada al-Sadr. This, in the main government building in Basra. There have been other signs. In August last year, a freelance journalist, James Brandon, was kidnapped from the same Diafa Hotel by abductors wearing police uniform. It would be easy to buy or fake the costumes, but the sense that the Iraqi police were indeed complicit was underlined when Brandon escaped and fled to a police station - only to be handed back to the kidnappers.

I was always intrigued, when in Basra, that there was never a general insurrection against the British, who are heavily outnumbered. Certainly there were deadly attacks and at one stage the threat was so great that Challenger battle tanks were needed to escort trucks resupplying the general hospital, yet there was no conflagration. I once asked a British officer whether this was because the extremists did not have so complete a grip on the city's police and government as was generally supposed."No, you're being too simplistic," he replied, explaining that the religious parties and the Badr Brigade did not want a revolt at that time and were keeping the Sadr forces under control. "They have no reason to fight the British; they know they have the majority," he said. "They will take over without a fight."

By the end of last year British intelligence was hearing about a new police squad, known as Internal Affairs, that was sending a chill through the town. It was responsible for capturing and torturing not only alleged criminals but also uniformed members of the Iraqi police who were resisting the political parties.

Should the British have intervened? Should they have tried to purge Basra and its surrounding region of extremists? One difficulty is that, for many people in the city, the Badr Brigade and their ilk are heroes - many of them fought Saddam for years, defeating his fedayeen forces during the 2003 invasion and curbing the looting afterwards. The Sciri party, Badr's political master, now forms part of the elected government of Iraq.

Another difficulty is that though Basra once had a strong educated, secular community, its ranks are severely depleted by years of economic decline and Ba'athist repression. Secularism has grown weak. Most of the population hold strong religious views and many of them see nothing wrong, for example, with the punishment and even execution of alcohol sellers.

British soldiers and officials in Iraq say their political masters ordered them to install democracy. This means that although they have at times intervened, sometimes ruthlessly, to combat extremism, if the extremists carry majority support there is a limit to what can be done. They insist that more heavy-handed intervention would have been counter-productive. As one officer put it: "If we start throwing our weight around, then we would become very quickly the enemy, and we can't afford that." At times this has meant extreme restraint. In al-Amarah, north of Basra, the British had to tolerate the appointment of a governor who, their intelligence indicated, was linked to those responsible for the killing of six members of the Royal Military Police.

No matter what is said in Whitehall, everything is geared towards an exit strategy. If Britain is to withdraw it has to allow the Iraqi security forces, however imperfect, to stand on their own feet. But there is a price to be paid. While Iraq may yet become free and independent, it may become not only a place that rejects western ideas, but one where all outsiders are in danger.