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Modest Genius
October 10th, 2005, 05:17 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1580560,00.htmlMichael Crichton's latest novel, State of Fear, is an action-packed thriller in which the hero is a scientist who discovers that climate change is all a fraud. The novel has sold well, but it was still something of a shock yesterday to find its author as an expert witness testifying on global warming in front of the United States Senate.

Crichton had been summoned to give evidence by Senator James Inhofe, a Republican senator from Oklahoma, who recently called global warming "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people".

Some scientists speculated that Crichton might be the best witness Senator Inhofe could find. A 2004 survey of 900 peer-reviewed and published scientific papers on climate change failed to find a single one who went against the belief that man-made change is happening and is dangerous.
...
He continued: "My recent novel, State of Fear, concerns the politicisation of scientific research ... What I would like to emphasise to the committee today is the importance of the independent verification to science."

What followed was a detailed critique of one of the major studies into climate change, carried out by the American climate researcher Michael Mann in the late 1990s, effectively accusing the scientists of failing to adhere to proper scientific standards.

Drawing on what he said was experience from his medical background, he told the assembled senators that any study where a single team plans the research, carries it out, supervises the analysis, and writes their own final report carries a "very high risk " of undetected bias.

But despite his critique of what is commonly regarded to be one of the first - and most important - studies on the history of global warming, he said it was not his intention to debunk the theory of global warming.

"In closing, I want to state emphatically that nothing in my remarks should be taken to imply that we can ignore our environment, or that we should not take climate change seriously. On the contrary, we must dramatically improve our record on environmental management. That's why a focused effort on climate science, aimed at securing sound, independently verified answers to policy questions, is so important now."

Not all senators were uniformly impressed. Hillary Clinton was the first to try to cut him down to size. "His views on climate change are at odds with the vast majority of climate scientists; it also appears in a work of fiction," the senator for New York said dismissively. "I think that the topic of this hearing is very important but organised in a way to muddy sound science rather than clarify it," she added, before thanking the other four witnesses who attended, but not Crichton.

Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer joined in. "We are here to talk about sound science - a worthy and important subject. We are not here to talk about plays, novels, art or music - although as a member for California I do appreciate the focus on the arts."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4319574.stm
Do you ever read that line on an early page of a novel: "Any connection between the characters and events herein portrayed, and real people, is purely coincidental."

In Michael Crichton's State of Fear, I'd say the connection was purely intentional. It's about the kind of hurricanes, floods, tsunamis and tornadoes we've been experiencing. Crichton's trade is to bring pleasurable terror to millions by spinning tales of science gone amok - as in Jurassic Park and the Andromeda Strain.

In this new bestseller those hurricanes etc aren't natural disasters at all. They are the creations of global warming activists - eco-maniacs desperate to publicise the case for controlling emissions of carbon dioxide. To make sure you get his point, Crichton adds a 32-page footnote documenting his own conviction that global warming is an unscientific scare.

What about the contrary worldwide consensus of scientists that global warming is a man-made disaster in the making? Crichton's answer: "If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus." As I suppose in the old consensus that the earth is flat.
...
The well-endowed think tank, the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy, honoured Crichton with an invitation to Washington to address its members - not on the novel, but on science policy in the 21st Century. The point of that was to embrace Crichton's attack on what he calls the pseudo-science of global warming.
...
It is quite significant that while President Bush has been active on hurricane relief, he has not reiterated his well-aired doubts about whether global warming is a real threat or a scare. Nor have we heard much from the Republican chairman of the Senate Environment Committee.

Senator James Inhofe's previous best effort was this: "With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phoney science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? It sure sounds like it."

The senator did not explain quite how 2,000 top scientists in 100 countries could have been persuaded in 2004 to produce a rare consensus that gas emissions left unchecked will produce a series of catastrophes. Nor is he likely to try and explain in the post-Katrina atmosphere.
...
All the delaying tactics, denials and obfuscations bring to mind what happened in 1974 to two American scientists, Professor Sherwood Roland and Dr Mario Molina. They coolly set out the evidence that the chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) used in refrigeration, aerosols and air conditioning were eating at the ozone layer which protects mankind and plants from dangerous ultraviolet radiation.

They were at once smeared as scaremongers. The manufacturers ran an all too successful campaign to fog the issue. A lazy media bought into it. The public got bored and bamboozled. And as they did so, millions more tons of the pollutant were added to the atmosphere.

Thirteen years later when the world finally woke up to an ozone hole bigger than anyone had predicted, there was a swift international agreement - led by the US - to find alternatives to the CFCs. In the meantime, great damage had been done.

Winston Churchill back in the 1930s had this to say about another government that didn't believe a threat was real. As the Chamberlain Cabinet dithered about Hitler, Churchill warned: "They go on in strange paradox, decided only to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all powerful to be impotent."

And he concluded: "The era of procrastination, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences."

We are entering that period now with global warming. And if quoting Churchill in this context puts me in Michael Crichton's class of conspirators, I will bear it with fortitude.
kinda interesting, that the current favorite anti-kyoto campaigner is a fiction writer, who has previously shown a lack of understanding of science

AlejandroDaJ
October 10th, 2005, 05:25 PM
The first read of the book intrigued me. On the second read-through I tore the fucking thing apart. Crichton's a moron. One of the biggest threats posed by global warming, and probably the single biggest sea-level threat, is thermal expansion (rising temperatures cause the surface area of water to expand, increasing sea height phenomenally). Crichton goes out of his way to avoid the subject, despite the fact that the Vanutu case and rising sea levels are a cornerstone of his book.

FaKToR
October 10th, 2005, 05:28 PM
We've discussed this before in the firebox. I don't know what's up with Crichton. I'm amazed they managed to work in a Hitler reference on global warming.

Lord Kelvin
October 10th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Never read any of his books, but his argument seems sorta thin. Not to mention, if you release all sorts of shit into the atmosphere, including gases that you have no idea what they do, it doesn't take a scientist to tell you that something's going to get fucked up. And you'd think that scientists who do this for a living would know better than someone whose area of expertise is in writing, or whatever Crichton's area of expertise is.

Modest Genius
October 10th, 2005, 06:00 PM
We've discussed this before in the firebox. I don't know what's up with Crichton. I'm amazed they managed to work in a Hitler reference on global warming.global warming, yes of course. i dont remember crichton being mentioned though...

lucky644
October 10th, 2005, 06:04 PM
I seem to recall hearing that in the last 50+ years we've managed to drop pollution like, 70%.

I think the whole thing is exaggerated to try and scare people into taking a lot of precautions with recycling and such.

AlejandroDaJ
October 10th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Doing something is better than doing nothing at all.

The hilarious thing is that after I finished my second read-through of State of Fear, I went back and read Jurassic Park and the Lost World again. In the Lost World, Crichton's character Ian Malcolm poses a really interesting theory about species extinction: that the reason most species go extinct is NOT because of failure to adapt to their physical environment, but their inability or refusal to adapt their BEHAVIOR to their environment.

And ten years later he writes a book that basically says "global warming is BS, let's just sit here and wait and see." I allowed myself a decent chuckle over that one.

Lord Kelvin
October 10th, 2005, 06:23 PM
Well, put it this way: if this planet goes down the shitter before we invent faster-than-light travel, we're basically screwed. Besides, precautions are never a bad thing. I'm not exactly an environmentalist, but I think what we have here is damned worth preserving.

Agent Law
October 10th, 2005, 06:43 PM
In the Lost World, Crichton's character Ian Malcolm poses a really interesting theory about species extinction: that the reason most species go extinct is NOT because of failure to adapt to their physical environment, but their inability or refusal to adapt their BEHAVIOR to their environment.

And ten years later he writes a book that basically says "global warming is BS, let's just sit here and wait and see." I allowed myself a decent chuckle over that one.
The irony, it hurts my sides. :D

That Critchon fellow doesn't seem to have a good grasp of science. Then again, I'm a little bit of an environmental nut.

Modest Genius
October 10th, 2005, 06:57 PM
That Critchon fellow doesn't seem to have a good grasp of science.youre telling me... just look at this:

'Drawing on what he said was experience from his medical background, he told the assembled senators that any study where a single team plans the research, carries it out, supervises the analysis, and writes their own final report carries a "very high risk " of undetected bias.'

it makes you wonder if he has any idea how science is conducted. heaven forbid that someone should have an idea, carry it out, analyse the results and then write a report on it! how else does he suggest we do science?

plus the fact that there are plenty of corroborating studies, especially for the Mann study.

Agent Law
October 10th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Personally, I'd like to know how his medical background allows him to critique the scientific method. Especially since such research is always open to scrutiny by other members of the scientific community, who can then research into it to find flaws.

Daywalker
October 10th, 2005, 08:40 PM
Well, put it this way: if this planet goes down the shitter before we invent faster-than-light travel, we're basically screwed. Besides, precautions are never a bad thing. I'm not exactly an environmentalist, but I think what we have here is damned worth preserving.


yea, probably best to err on the side of caution in that situation.

Lord Kelvin
October 10th, 2005, 10:15 PM
Personally, I'd like to know how his medical background allows him to critique the scientific method. Especially since such research is always open to scrutiny by other members of the scientific community, who can then research into it to find flaws.
Exactly. By his logic, medical doctors should all become the world leaders in research, and virtually all research that has been done up to this point is biased.

Is it me or does this sound sort of like a Bush conspiracy to get people to stop worrying about pollution?

Degree:N
October 14th, 2005, 01:47 AM
Is it me or does this sound sort of like a Bush conspiracy to get people to stop worrying about pollution?
It does to me. The only time a costly solution is needed for a problem is when there is actually a problem. If there is denial of a problems existence, then a solution doesn't need to be found.

The Bush administration has (imo) put all their eggs in the oil basket and if they admit to global warming existing and being caused by humans burning fossil fuels + using CFC'c etc, then the Iraq occupation will seem doubly "bad". (Hurting international relations and the environment).

That's why a focused effort on climate science, aimed at securing sound, independently verified answers to policy questions, is so important now.Who's he going to get to conduct an "independant" verification of internationally agreed scientific claims?

Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer joined in. "... as a member for California I do appreciate the focus on the arts." ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah

pro kossu
October 14th, 2005, 02:10 AM
All the delaying tactics, denials and obfuscations bring to mind what happened in 1974 to two American scientists, Professor Sherwood Roland and Dr Mario Molina. They coolly set out the evidence that the chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) used in refrigeration, aerosols and air conditioning were eating at the ozone layer which protects mankind and plants from dangerous ultraviolet radiation.

They were at once smeared as scaremongers. The manufacturers ran an all too successful campaign to fog the issue. A lazy media bought into it. The public got bored and bamboozled. And as they did so, millions more tons of the pollutant were added to the atmosphere.

This seems to be a recurring trend. You could add leaded gasoline and asbestos (and tobacco o' course) to the list. All were said to be harmless by the industry which produced them, despite sometimes knowing themselves for a fact that they were killers.

Fun fact: the inventor of CFC's was Thomas Midgley, the same guy who came up with the led additive to gas.

GrosPoisson
October 14th, 2005, 02:18 AM
Not that this is one of them, but there is a history of environmental "the sky is falling" handwringing from various academics. I remember hearing a lot of crap back in elementary and middle school that went along the lines of "At the current rate, the rainforest will be completely gone by 2000!" Huh, that's funny. It's still there.

Anyway, that'd have to be one hell of a conspiracy for it's ideas to be so widely propagated and rarely questioned as it is.

Modest Genius
October 14th, 2005, 03:24 PM
I remember hearing a lot of crap back in elementary and middle school that went along the lines of "At the current rate, the rainforest will be completely gone by 2000!" Huh, that's funny. It's still there.well, i remember it being 'by 2100', but maybe thats just me

Lord Kelvin
October 14th, 2005, 03:27 PM
The reason the rainforest is disappearing isn't because we're wasting paper; we have genetically engineered tree farms for that. The rainforest is disappearing because farmers are plowing it down for farmland.

GrosPoisson
October 14th, 2005, 04:27 PM
well, i remember it being 'by 2100', but maybe thats just me

You're probably right. Last time I heard that was from my sixth grade teacher. She was such a clueless hippie that I wouldn't be surprised if she dropped an entire century off a projection like that. This is the same woman who always said she wouldn't have a baby until the world was perfect, then ended up having a kid sometime in 2002. Yeah, great job there.

The rainforest is disappearing because farmers are plowing it down for farmland.

QFE. From what I remember reading, they're clear-cutting the forest to try and make grazing land for cattle. You can't blame them really. If you live in South America close to the rainforest, you are probably dirt poor. If you're also barely making ends meet, I doubt the preservation of the ecosystem is a top priority.

Prowl
October 14th, 2005, 05:16 PM
hey, this thread is teeming with bad science, well done, you are all now honorary micheal crichtons :D

1. CFCs are destroying the ozone layer, the effects of this are mainly concerned with increased levels of UV radiation leading to increases in skin cancers and not particularly global warming.

2. Global warming is a fact, the sea will expand due to thermal effects thus raising the sea levels. Glaciers and the icecaps are melting which will contribute to rising sea levels.

3. Cutting down the rainforests, which is still happening at an alarming rate has several consequences. Firstly the rainforests actually produce an awful lot of oxygen and consume a fair bit of Carbon Dioxide, both of which are GOOD things. Cutting them down leads to desertification in the long run (we are talking about decades, not centuries here) which forces the farmers to move to more productive land (more rainforest....) in a continuing cycle until its all cut down and we then have a new sahara in the amazon. This is ignoring the impact on the biodiversity.

Modest Genius
October 14th, 2005, 06:38 PM
hFirstly the rainforests actually produce an awful lot of oxygen and consume a fair bit of Carbon Dioxide, both of which are GOOD things.theres your own bad science. during the DAY plants do that, at night they respire just like animals and use up oxygen and make CO2. the difference is miniscule, and measured in the hundreths of a percent. it took millions of years of nothing but plants to produce any serious change in the atmospheric composition, the rainforests help in the long run, but not enough that planting trees (or stopping current ones being cut down) would alleviate global warming

Lord Kelvin
October 14th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Well, there's also the thing about extinction. Last figure I saw (a long-ass time ago too BTW) a dozen species of animal die out every day. But that sounds extremely biased to me.

Modest Genius
October 14th, 2005, 10:37 PM
it also sounds extremely accurate.

the sheer number of species is insane, and most of them are insects, primarily beetles

several new species are discovered each week, so the idea that ten times as many are becoming extinct undiscovered is hardly surprising

Lord Kelvin
October 14th, 2005, 10:59 PM
It might also have something to do with how species are defined. For example, I read something about a certain mouse species; there are four species of mouse in the Rocky Mountain area, let's say A, B, C, and D. A can mate with B and C, D can mate with B and C as well, but A and D don't mate with each other. Even though they share the same genetic material through what's passed through B and C, they're still considered as different species.

[Political] Slayer
October 14th, 2005, 11:12 PM
so we should believe these scientists, who have no clue what they are talking about themselves, and accept that everything they say is correct? I mean, we have only been on this world for 2 million years, and think that we know exactly what is happening. I mean, it's a theory, doesn't mean it is correct, and don't give me that bullshit that "Oh, but all the scientists agree, so it must be correct." Using that logic, the world is still flat, everything orbits around us, and many other false things wouldn't have been disproved. And by the way, weren't we bitching about a global cooling only 30 years ago? And further, these same scientists claim that global warming is going to cause another ice age? What the fuck kind of logic is that?

Oh yeah, and here are sources for the people who want to disagree:

http://www.globalclimate.org/Newsweek.htm for global cooling
http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1083419,00.html for global warming causing an ice age


Oh yeah, and a picture:
http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/PageMill_Images/image158.gif
See, it is a cycle, we are just returning to a warm period, like the medival warm. First they say pollution blocks out the sun and heat, now they say it traps the heat.... The climatologists are like John Kerry, they flip flop anytime something disagrees with their theory.


-e- and look at this... causes of global climate change:

(1) Astronomical Causes

* 11 year and 206 year cycles: Cycles of solar variability ( sunspot activity )
* 21,000 year cycle: Earth's combined tilt and elliptical orbit around the Sun ( precession of the equinoxes )
* 41,000 year cycle: Cycle of the +/- 1.5° wobble in Earth's orbit ( tilt )
* 100,000 year cycle: Variations in the shape of Earth's elliptical orbit ( cycle of eccentricity )



(2) Atmospheric Causes

* Heat retention: Due to atmospheric gases, mostly gaseous water vapor (not droplets), also carbon dioxide, methane, and a few other miscellaneous gases-- the "greenhouse effect"
* Solar reflectivity: Due to white clouds, volcanic dust, polar ice caps



(3) Tectonic Causes

* Landmass distribution: Shifting continents (continental drift) causing changes in circulatory patterns of ocean currents. It seems that whenever there is a large land mass at one of the Earth's poles, either the north pole or south pole, there are ice ages.
* Undersea ridge activity: "Sea floor spreading" (associated with continental drift) causing variations in ocean displacement.

Modest Genius
October 14th, 2005, 11:23 PM
<sigh>

read the IPCC report. these kind of arguments have been rebuffed again and again. and the whole point is that it is proceeding FAR quicker than the medieval warm period etc

on top of that, who cares whats causing it? its still a problem, whatever the reason

so we should believe these scientists, who have no clue what they are talking about themselves, and accept that everything they say is correct?theyre the best people for the job. noone knows any better than them. of course not everything they say is correct, but it remains mankinds best guess.
I mean, we have only been on this world for 2 million years, and think that we know exactly what is happening. I mean, it's a theory, doesn't mean it is correct, and don't give me that bullshit that "Oh, but all the scientists agree, so it must be correct."you appear to be confusing theories, hypotheses and paradigms.
Using that logic, the world is still flat, everything orbits around us, and many other false things wouldn't have been disproved.quite true, and also entirely ignoring all those things which were believed back then which are still true today. by far the majority of serious scientific theories with this level of support are never overturned. mostly theories are just improved by making a small change, rather than proven wrong and replaced.
And by the way, weren't we bitching about a global cooling only 30 years ago? And further, these same scientists claim that global warming is going to cause another ice age? What the fuck kind of logic is that?its called complicity. personally i think that particular hypothesis is bollocks, and i think youve read some poorly reported nonsense

Prowl
October 14th, 2005, 11:40 PM
MG, I didn't mention global warming under my point about the rain forests. They are pretty much carbon neutral unless they are expanding, which certainly isnt the case. Though cutting down millions of tonnes of wood which was a pretty good carbon trap is probably not a good thing....

and in response to Political Slayer: Those theories were overturned by the application of the scientific methods. They weren't overturned by faith, or jesus or wishful thinking. If you can overturn global warming by devising a theory that fits the facts, and is demonstrable, then you will be the first to do so.

Modest Genius
October 14th, 2005, 11:45 PM
MG, I didn't mention global warming under my point about the rain forests. They are pretty much carbon neutral unless they are expanding, which certainly isnt the case. Though cutting down millions of tonnes of wood which was a pretty good carbon trap is probably not a good thing....ahh, ok, yes that is correct. the phrasing of your previous post was ambiguous on that point

lucid
October 23rd, 2005, 10:12 PM
Slayer']so we should believe these scientists, who have no clue what they are talking about themselves, and accept that everything they say is correct? I mean, we have only been on this world for 2 million years, and think that we know exactly what is happening. I mean, it's a theory, doesn't mean it is correct, and don't give me that bullshit that "Oh, but all the scientists agree, so it must be correct."


The climatologists are like John Kerry, they flip flop anytime something disagrees with their theory.


You don't seem to have a firm grasp on the scientific method. Everytime new phenomena (i.e. such as global warming) is observed, our theories change and become better. A good scientist will never say a theory is 100% certain or is correct. He may say 'this theory explains the phenomena with the current data we have quite well, however if new data comes along that contradicts this theory, I'll have come up with a new theory'.

For example, Newton's Laws of Motion work 99% of the time and can be used to explain just about every situation. However, there is a point where they can't explain what is happening and that's where Einstein came in.