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Modest Genius
October 11th, 2005, 01:58 PM
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/10/11/better-off-without-him/
Remarkably, no one, until now, has attempted systematically to answer the question with which this column began. But in the current edition of the Journal of Religion and Society, a researcher called Gregory Paul tests the hypothesis propounded by evangelists in the Bush administration, that religion is associated with lower rates of “lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity and abortion”. He compared data from 18 developed democracies, and discovered that the Christian fundamentalists couldn’t have got it more wrong.(6)

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion … None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction.” Within the United States “the strongly theistic, anti-evolution South and Midwest” have “markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the Northeast where … secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms”.

Three sets of findings stand out: the associations between religion – especially absolute belief – and juvenile mortality, venereal disease and adolescent abortion. Paul’s graphs show far higher rates of death among the under-5s in Portugal, the US and Ireland and put the US - the most religious country in his survey – in a league of its own for gonorrhea and syphilis. Strangest of all for those who believe that Christian societies are “pro-life” is the finding that “increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator … Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data.”(7)

These findings appear to match the studies of teenage pregnancy I’ve read. The rich countries in which sexual abstinence campaigns, generally inspired by religious belief, are strongest have the highest early pregnancy rates(8). The US is the only rich nation with teenage pregnancy levels comparable to those of developing nations: it has a worse record than India, the Philippines and Rwanda(9). Because they’re poorly educated about sex and in denial about what they’re doing (and so less likely to use contraceptives), boys who participate in abstinence programmes are more likely to get their partners pregnant than those who don’t(10).

Is it fair to blame all this on religion? While the rankings cannot reflect national poverty – the US has the world’s 4th highest GDP per head, Ireland the 8th – the nations which do well in Paul’s study also have higher levels of social spending and distribution than those which do badly. Is this a cause or an association? In other words, are religious societies less likely to distribute wealth than secular ones? In the US, where governments are still guided by the Puritan notions that money is a sign that you’ve been chosen by God and poverty is a mark of moral weakness, Christian belief seems to be at odds with the dispersal of wealth. But the UK - one of the most secular societies in Paul’s study – is also one of the least inclusive, and does rather worse in his charts than countries with similar levels of religion. The broad trend, however, looks clear: “the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have … come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life”.”(11)

Are religious societies better than secular ones? It should be an easy question for athiests to answer. Most of those now seeking to blow people up – whether with tanks and missiles or rucksacks and passenger planes – do so in the name of God. In India, we see men whose religion forbids them to harm insects setting light to human beings. A 14th-century Pope with a 21st-century communications network sustains his church’s mission of persecuting gays and denying women ownership of their bodies. Bishops and rabbis in Britain have just united in the cause of prolonging human suffering, by opposing the legalisation of assisted suicide. We know that the most dangerous human trait is an absence of self-doubt, and that self-doubt is more likely to be absent from the mind of the believer than the infidel.

But we also know that few religious governments have committed atrocities on the scale of Hitler’s, Mao’s or Stalin’s (though, given their more limited means, the Spanish and British in the Americas, the British, Germans and Belgians in Africa and the British in Australia and India could be said to have done their best). It is hard to dismiss Dostoyevsky’s suspicion that “if God does not exist, then everything is permissible.”(1) Nor can we wholly disagree with the new Pope when he warns that “we are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which … has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”(2) (We must trust, of course, that a man who has spent his life campaigning to become God’s go-between, and who now believes he is infallible, is immune to such impulses). The creationists in the United States might be as mad as a box of ferrets, but what they claim to fear is the question which troubles almost everyone who has stopped to think about it: if our lives have no purpose, why should we care about other people’s?

Lord Kelvin
October 11th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Wow, I'm actually surprised. For now I'd just say that this is a coincidence, since it seems so far-fetched, but that's just my opinion. It might be true, but it seems strange to me that religion would directly corellate to crime and all sorts of bad stuff, and I'm a Heathen (one of my favorite words).

Captain Colon
October 11th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Doing good (how teenage pregnancy and STDs relate to virtuous behavior I have no idea) out of fear of retribution from the law or a higher power or for your own personal gain ("brownie points," gaining entry to heaven) is not virtuous.

Mr. Fiend
October 11th, 2005, 02:48 PM
While I am not religious myself, and frankly, I find the Bush claim mentioned in the article more than a little absurd, I find myself questioning the validity of his claims. To draw a line from religion to this wide array of social problems without mentioning other factors sounds like special pleading to me (although to be fair, he does mention poverty). I also find some of his language to be biased.

The second article, at first, seems worse.A 14th-century Pope with a 21st-century communications network sustains his church?s mission of persecuting gays and denying women ownership of their bodies. Bishops and rabbis in Britain have just united in the cause of prolonging human suffering, by opposing the legalisation of assisted suicide.These are clear appeals to emotion.We know that the most dangerous human trait is an absence of self-doubt, and that self-doubt is more likely to be absent from the mind of the believer than the infidel.I find this quite ironic, given how confident he seems to be that his beliefs are correct, as evidenced by his strong language in the first quote.

Now, the second part of his article turns around and brings up the other side. However, one cannot help but point to the Crusades as a prime example of religious massacre (the Jews of Jerusalem come to mind). One might also speculate that a major contributor to the sheer scale of death attributed to Mao, Hitler, and Stalin, is technology - technology that wasn't around one thousand years ago. The rise of urban centers and high population density may also have contributed.

All in all (in my opinion, of course), the first article brings up an interesting argument, but it seems to assume that religion is the sole factor, or at least the most significant factor, without proving that it really is. The second article is two-sided, yet features clear emotional appeals.

Conclusion - be wary of posting articles so close in time to my Logic class.

Modest Genius
October 11th, 2005, 02:54 PM
erm, fiend, those are two quotes from one article, if you read the link

id just like to point out i dont necessarily agree with him, because i think a lot more is going on and its being a bit simplistic. i posted it because i thought it raised an interesting point and opinion, and wondered what impressions other had on it

Mr. Fiend
October 11th, 2005, 02:59 PM
erm, fiend, those are two quotes from one article, if you read the linkOops. My mistake.id just like to point out i dont necessarily agree with him, because i think a lot more is going on and its being a bit simplistic. i posted it because i thought it raised an interesting point and opinion, and wondered what impressions other had on itIndeed. He brings up an interesting subject, but he's not telling us everything we need to know in order to draw a proper conclusion.

GoatChomper
October 12th, 2005, 06:49 AM
In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion … None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction.” Within the United States “the strongly theistic, anti-evolution South and Midwest” have “markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the Northeast where … secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms.
Monbiot has merely proven that if you want to see causality, you will see it when and where you want or better yet, if you look at a forest through a straw then you will indeed see nothing but green. This paragraph utterly fails to take into account that factors other than religious attitudes are in play.
The creationists in the United States might be as mad as a box of ferrets.....
Well, at least he has enough sense to save his worst hyperbole for the very last and ensure you'll read everything else. Remember, folks.....never, ever pass up the opportunity to label your ideological opponents as insane and in need of psychotherapy. It worked pretty well for the Soviets.

Lord Kelvin
October 12th, 2005, 01:56 PM
That's what I was saying, this thing looks completely biased since they failed to look at other statistics. I might as easily give out some other statistic, like "anti-war protesters are causing our soldiers in Iraq to die", and find some sort of wierd correlation that might exist and use that as my evidence.

GoatChomper
October 13th, 2005, 05:30 AM
In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion …
Worse, Monbiot looks an utter fool for having failed to look at Saudi Arabia before deciding to blame it all on being highly religious.

Stalin
October 23rd, 2005, 12:51 AM
I donno, Wyoming has a lot of religion, and I couldn't get a piece of ass if I was going to die the next day. Karaya1 goes to Germany, and bangs every chick he sees. These are just two experiences, but that article sounds sketchy. Or maybe I should lower my standards...

Noirceur
October 23rd, 2005, 06:02 AM
Doing good (how teenage pregnancy and STDs relate to virtuous behavior I have no idea) out of fear of retribution from the law or a higher power or for your own personal gain ("brownie points," gaining entry to heaven) is not virtuous.
Seconded

Bobo*the*Clown
October 23rd, 2005, 09:31 AM
The one thing I actually learned in the three years I was pursuing my minor in Sociology was that the bias of the one doing the study will eventually come out whether they think they are biased or not.

Nice to see that education was worthwhile all these years later. Whenever a 'researcher' refers to a sub-group of his study as "mad as a box of ferrets" you can pretty musch surmise that he's probably ignoring any evidence that may prove any of his central ideas incorrect. If he's already convinced that one of his study groups is 'crazy' does anyone really think he would even look at...or God forbid publish...any data that would prove his own opinion incorrect? He clearly shows his biased opinion in the conclusion....how in the world can anyone think that the rest of the 'study' isn't as heavily biased as the conclusion?

Completely and totally asinine. I'd say i would have flunked out had I tried to turn in such a biased rag for a term paper, but fact is, the sociology profs encouraged such biases...as long as the bias and bigotry was against an appropriatly targeted group...like Christians, Republicans, and anyone else they disagreed with. Some things never change I guess.

FaKToR
October 23rd, 2005, 10:10 AM
I thought this article was really neither here nor there, but it's not a scientific study so I don't attribute anymore to it than was (I think) intentioned which was to be a sort of satirical jab at those who feel "holier than thou".

Whenever a 'researcher' refers to a sub-group of his study as "mad as a box of ferrets" you can pretty musch surmise that he's probably ignoring any evidence that may prove any of his central ideas incorrect.
Did your biases lead you to that conclusion?

Bobo*the*Clown
October 23rd, 2005, 08:26 PM
You learn quickly young padawan. Come with me to the dark side...you too can vote republican, complain about estate taxes and laugh sarcastically at the travails of those economically inferior to ourselves!