Libertarianism: What do you like/not like about it?

[Seanobi]

I need to know what Libertarian issues you people agree with and disagree with for a project. Be blunt, be honest, but please, be serious and don't be asshats.

[Lord Kelvin]

It's the Firebox, we're not allowed to be asshats here.

Last I read, the definition of Libertarian is that you're socially liberal and economically conservative; you're pro-abortion, pro-gay-marriage, etc., but anti-social-security, anti-giveouts, etc.. If you're talking about the Libertarian Party, I think their platform doesn't exactly conform to this, according to some people who read it.

[marty]

I believe that the Government does need to fund some basic services, including:

Schools (from K - 12 and State University systems)
Parks (City parks -> National Wildlife Reserves)
Libraries
Public Television
Public Radio
Storm Warning Systems

There's also a few others that I'm probably forgetting right now

[FaKToR]

I see it as the party of the self-centered.

[Captain Colon]

I agree with the prospect of near-complete social freedom, but as a worker I don't like the idea of going back to industrial revolution era economics.

[FaKToR]

Maybe I should clarify, their malformed ideas of freedom, equity, and the role of a society.

[GrosPoisson]

Maybe I've just had the misfortune of running into all the crazies, but I think certain Libertarians are way too fixated on the gold standard and similar issues.

[Lord Kelvin]

Party: bad. Concept that happens to share their name: okay in my book.

It's sort of funny, the Republicans tout themselves as the party of "fiscal responsibility" and they've amassed a huge-ass debt :p.

[Luguberos]

They believe in personal responsibility, and i like this. On the other hand, libertarianism seems to be too capitalist. Still, i'll vote for libertarians because they usually aren't against gun rights, womens rights, or gay rights, and best of all, they aren't at all Chr*stianity-centered. I think.

I wonder if they consider the mass media a form of coersion.

[FaKToR]

Their notion of personal responsibility is based in the idea that we live in a just world and people only get what they deserve. From that you see things such as the libertarian notion of freedom, which is based strictly on the belief of negative freedoms i.e. freedom is the removal of restrictions. This completely ignores positive freedoms, which is really misleading because freedom from restrictions is worthless if you cannot take advantage or have the ability to use such freedom.

This also applies to the notion of equity, which I find warped. For example their is equity in voting with ones dollars, despite the fact that some have more votes than others. This is balanced apparently because those extra dollars are "earned". Unfortunately the "just world" view doesn't take into account things such as the paradox of value in that people may receive lot's of money but not really invest effort that is "earn" that money. We all do not start out equally with equal capacities so assuming that we do will actually guarantee that there is inequity in the world by ostracizing those who've had bad fortune, an idea that doesn't seem to exist in the libertarian world.

Similar to the libertarian notion of freedom is the libertarian notion of government. Rather than having positive qualities such as providing utilities, education, health care etc for the people, the purpose of government is taken to strictly be about protecting the rights of people and property (emphasis on property because the notion is "what's mine is mine and it can be no other way").

I would also point out that libertarians have very backward ideas of economics. Ideas that I would have thought many to consider outdated or disproven.

One thing you have to remember is that libertarianism is somewhat new, or at least poorly studied and as such either many people are not familiar with their views. There also seems to be a lack of available criticism because no one has really given a shit until the rise of the internet and the development of those in the tech industry allowed the movement to gain in strength. Another similar area of thought would be anarcho-capitalism, though most libertarians find some form of government necessary for providing a legal system and national defense.

[marty]

I would also point out that libertarians have very backward ideas of economics. Ideas that I would have thought many to consider outdated or disproven.
Not quite backward. Just extremely oversimplified.

[FaKToR]

How about outdated?

[Seanobi]

I probably worded the question incorrectly. In rather simple terms, could you tell me what issues and positions you agree or disagree with. Things like "gun control", and "the war on drugs", and "economics".

[FaKToR]

It probably would help if you clarify "libertarian issues" cause if you're going to get that specific it would help if you would tell us more since there isn't total agreement amongst libertarians.

[Seanobi]

Not really. I'm not looking for a debate here. If you know anything about Libertarianism, then tell me what you like or dislike about it. If you don't know anything about it, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads you could loiter in.

[StandingCow]

I like how they seem to be all about small govenment..

[[Political] Slayer]

I like everything about it except the pro gay marraige and pro abortion parts of it. I would call myself more of a little "l" libertarian.

[Grunt]

Their notion of personal responsibility is based in the idea that we live in a just world and people only get what they deserve.

I don't belive in a just world, but you still get what you deserver. Life sucks in general, and no political system is going to make it any better.

[Feanaro]

I like the idea, don't really like the party. They lack the... showmanship and, well, ability to sell out a little. If they softened a few views and stopped nominating people like Bardnik(people think he is a loon, which counts for way more than any facts to the contrary... if any), they might get more people elected.

One point that always stuck in my craw. I dislike their idea about borders. Why, if an individual can associate with who they like and a group can associate with who it likes, can't nations do the same? It is a highly unrealistic idea, especially in the face of the political enviroment.

[HarryB]

I don't belive in a just world, but you still get what you deserver. Life sucks in general, and no political system is going to make it any better.


So if a hurricane comes whipping through the city, trashes your house, and destroys your belongings, you deserved that?

[Feanaro]

So if a hurricane comes whipping through the city, trashes your house, and destroys your belongings, you deserved that?

If you build the house in Florida, yes. Hurricanes do that with some regularity there. Risk of puttin' roots there. If, on the other hand, your house was located in Alaska...

[Grunt]

So if a hurricane comes whipping through the city, trashes your house, and destroys your belongings, you deserved that?

You can't deserve a hurricane any more than you can't deserve a sunny day.

Natural events aren't in my "you deserve it" list because they are omnipotent and don't single out any person, place, or location.

[saruman-23]

i wouldn't say that natural events aren't omnipotent, they're closer to random. though i know they aren't random per se.

sadly i don't know anything about libertarianism - it's not even a term i've heard before :o so i'll leave that as my two cents.

[Captain Colon]

You can't deserve a hurricane any more than you can't deserve a sunny day.

Natural events aren't in my "you deserve it" list because they are omnipotent and don't single out any person, place, or location.
You could say that you "deserve" the result of a hurricane because you were either inadequately prepared or were one of those "haha it'll never happen to me" people.


I don't think it really matters who "deserves" what...either you have it/it happens or you don't/it doesn't.

[puke o'hara]

How do you "prepare" to a hurricane so that it can't, for example, destroy your home?

[FaKToR]

I don't belive in a just world, but you still get what you deserver. Life sucks in general, and no political system is going to make it any better.
The "just world" view is a term in psychology and it means basically what you think happens, that is people get what they deserve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

[marty]

"They shouldn't have made their homes in a place with hurricanes/earthquakes/typhoons/etc"

I hate it when I hear that... There is no place on earth that is 100% safe. Period. And not everyone gets to choose where they live. Libertarians and other people with that view are also asking people to give up part of what it means to be human (emotion -> emotional attachment -> emotional attachment to an area -> living in a place that's "dangerous")

And on the oversimplified and outdated economics... I notice only teenagers and nutjob (Austrian school) economists feel that way... Nobody I know in the practical side of business feels strongly about those views (meaning top level executives in financial and industrial firms in two countries)

[Captain Colon]

Nobody said anything about giving it up...the libertarian view is why should they expect everyone else to help them when they live there knowing full well what might happen?

[HarryB]

"They shouldn't have made their homes in a place with hurricanes/earthquakes/typhoons/etc"

I hate it when I hear that... There is no place on earth that is 100% safe. Period. And not everyone gets to choose where they live. Libertarians and other people with that view are also asking people to give up part of what it means to be human (emotion -> emotional attachment -> emotional attachment to an area -> living in a place that's "dangerous")

And on the oversimplified and outdated economics... I notice only teenagers and nutjob (Austrian school) economists feel that way... Nobody I know in the practical side of business feels strongly about those views (meaning top level executives in financial and industrial firms in two countries)


Exactly. There are a lot of poeple in the US, and not all of them can fit into the places that don't have major natural disasters.

Also, you know why we no longer use the Classic Liberal view on economics? Because it's outdated due to the way state economies are in now. There are a lot of people getting downsized for reason's beyond their control. Saying that it's their fault for getting downsized shows that you really don't understand the economics of the world now. How is it someone's fault that their job got outsourced? The Libertarian economic view is so antiquated that it'll never become commen place, because it doesn't work anymore.

[GoatChomper]

Time to throw out a grenade I handled today.....

Jury duty.....it's mandatory, and it's state-imposed.

[SOCOM-DELTA]

So if a hurricane comes whipping through the city, trashes your house, and destroys your belongings, you deserved that?

this is where the conflict arises.

and conversely, the conflict also arises when, say... one legally inherits millions of dollars. did that person EARN that money, just by being related to someone who died?

[Lord Kelvin]

this is where the conflict arises.

and conversely, the conflict also arises when, say... one legally inherits millions of dollars. did that person EARN that money, just by being related to someone who died?
Well, it was the person who died's will that that money be given to that person. The dead guy earned the money in one way or another, and you can't exactly stop him from giving it to whoever he wants.

[Walnut]

How do you "prepare" to a hurricane so that it can't, for example, destroy your home?

There are really two options:

1)Build it strong enough so that hurricanes will not destroy it.
2)Don't build your house where hurricanes of significant force hit.

There is no place on earth that is 100% safe. Period. And not everyone gets to choose where they live. Libertarians and other people with that view are also asking people to give up part of what it means to be human (emotion -> emotional attachment -> emotional attachment to an area -> living in a place that's "dangerous")

Of course. Nothing is completely unavoidable. No one is at fault for natural disasters.