Deleted posts - explanation?

[Degree:N]

Yo mods, a couple of my posts were deleted out of the Tech Support forum with no explanation given to me. I think pk! had one deleted also.

I have been told in the past that deleted posts/threads would be explained to respective authors.

[StandingCow]

No, deletions are not explained unless asked about.

The reason they were deleted is because they were just OTF type spam in the tech support area, they had no purpose.

[Lord Kelvin]

If I may ask, why don't you just cut down on the hassle and simply tell them why it was deleted when you do delete it, in a PM? Fewer questions are asked, and it's the courteous thing to do. That is, unless posts get deleted all the time, which I'm under the impression that they're not.

[FaKToR]

I don't like cause sometimes I'll go to make a thread, preview it and think I've already posted it going back to the main forums. So if you delete a thread I made and don't tell me I'll think I forgot to post it and make the thread again.

[StandingCow]

I am not going to send a PM for every post I delete. If you have a question you can ask here.

[Chris R]

Because posts get deleted often, specially with the new rules.


I hate to say it, but while I understand that rules do have to be enforced and followed, what's the point of so drastically changing the rules so that it cuts down on such a large bulk of what goes on in a community? I'd understand if it was an inherently bad thing, but it really didn't seem that way with the OTF.

[StandingCow]

I hate to say it, but while I understand that rules do have to be enforced and followed, what's the point of so drastically changing the rules so that it cuts down on such a large bulk of what goes on in a community? I'd understand if it was an inherently bad thing, but it really didn't seem that way with the OTF.

Jeeze you guys post too fast, I edited my post because after thinking about it... it really isn't true... posts aren't deleted very often.

[Discobird]

I am not going to send a PM for every post I delete. If you have a question you can ask here.

Why not edit the post with the reason for the "deletion" instead? If you have a way to lock a post from further editing, that's the end of it; if not, and the poster edits his post to restore the original content (or write something else against the rules), then you can delete the post, but at least the poster would know what rule he broke in the first place.

[Somedude]

If I may ask, why don't you just cut down on the hassle and simply tell them why it was deleted when you do delete it, in a PM? Fewer questions are asked, and it's the courteous thing to do. That is, unless posts get deleted all the time, which I'm under the impression that they're not.

Posts do get deleted on a fairly regular basis, and most of the time, people can guess why, or just flat out don't care, so it's best to just wait until someone has a question.

Anyway... In this particular case, it's because the posts were off-topic. The question in the deleted posts was one of what degree of swearing is allowed and what words are banned. A thread like that would be better served here, in this section rather than in a random thread in the tech support forum.

[StandingCow]

Why not edit the post with the reason for the "deletion" instead? If you have a way to lock a post from further editing, that's the end of it; if not, and the poster edits his post to restore the original content (or write something else against the rules), then you can delete the post, but at least the poster would know what rule he broke in the first place.

If people thought about it for a second, they should be able to figure it out... in this case, "hey, I posted some totally unhelpful OTF comments in the tech support area, why was it deleted?" should be easy to figure out.

Also, when more than one post needs to be deleted, we just check a little box on the posts and then scroll down and hit delete, if we edit, then we have to go to every single post and edit it.

We are busy enough as it is.

[Chris R]

Jeeze you guys post too fast, I edited my post because after thinking about it... it really isn't true... posts aren't deleted very often.

Ah, okay.

[Somedude]

Why not edit the post with the reason for the "deletion" instead? If you have a way to lock a post from further editing, that's the end of it; if not, and the poster edits his post to restore the original content (or write something else against the rules), then you can delete the post, but at least the poster would know what rule he broke in the first place.

Frankly, sometimes posts aren't breaking rules. Often what will happen is someone will post something that needs to be deleted, someone else will reply to it, so while not bad in itself, it needs to be deleted(or edited) too.

[Discobird]

If people thought about it for a second, they should be able to figure it out... in this case, "hey, I posted some totally unhelpful OTF comments in the tech support area, why was it deleted?" should be easy to figure out.
Apparently it wasn't, hence this thread... and there's no guarantee that it will be this way in the future (people may be reasonably unaware of skirting the border in some part of their post, new members of the forums may not have read the rules thoroughly, etc.).


Also, when more than one post needs to be deleted, we just check a little box on the posts and then scroll down and hit delete, if we edit, then we have to go to every single post and edit it.

We are busy enough as it is.
If you're in a rush, just cite the rules which were broken by their number (e.g. "1f").

I think the benefits of always giving a reason for deletion-- increased transparency, spreading awareness of the rules, quieting the tin-foil crowd, preventing threads like this one-- far outweigh the small convenience of putting a little check in the box.

[StandingCow]

Hell, if we got paid to moderate the forums, I wouldn't mind editing instead of deleteing :D

EDIT: Disco, unless I am told otherwise, I am just going to continue with the deleting. Takes too much time to edit, and often I am trying to do things quickly before too many people see it.

[Discobird]

Hell, if we got paid to moderate the forums, I wouldn't mind editing instead of deleteing :D

EDIT: Disco, unless I am told otherwise, I am just going to continue with the deleting. Takes too much time to edit, and often I am trying to do things quickly before too many people see it.

Just how many posts are you mass-deleting? :ninja: I mean, I don't want to make presumptions, I'm sure you're a busy dude. But honestly, I don't see how leaving out the reason saves that much time, and everyone would benefit from more transparency, including the mods.

Put it this way-- you've already spent probably ten times as much time replying in this thread as it would've taken to write "OT- take it to the mods forum."

[Discobird]

Frankly, sometimes posts aren't breaking rules. Often what will happen is someone will post something that needs to be deleted, someone else will reply to it, so while not bad in itself, it needs to be deleted(or edited) too.

Hmm, I get your point. In that case I think it's reasonable to just edit the root post and mass-delete the rest (people can be reasonably expected to know who they replied to and thus figure out the reason for the downstream deletions).

[FaKToR]

Just how many posts are you mass-deleting? :ninja: I mean, I don't want to make presumptions, I'm sure you're a busy dude. But honestly, I don't see how leaving out the reason saves that much time, and everyone would benefit from more transparency, including the mods.

Put it this way-- you've already spent probably ten times as much time replying in this thread as it would've taken to write "OT- take it to the mods forum."

There's a deletion reason for mods whenever they delete a thread.

[StandingCow]

Yep, the mods see the reason for the deletion.

[Discobird]

There's a deletion reason for mods whenever they delete a thread.

I'm talking about posts, not just threads.

[StandingCow]

I'm talking about posts, not just threads.

Mods also see deleted posts, and a reason.

[Lord Kelvin]

But users don't, and that's part of the main problem here. I won't accuse you of being abusive or anything like that (historically you guys haven't, the main exception being Lucky), but it doesn't exactly help you when you delete something and somebody legitimately asks why. An automatic system that automatically send a PM to the member whose post was deleted containing the reason (whatever you enter into the reason box) would be nice.

[Discobird]

Mods also see deleted posts, and a reason.

Well then,

1) There's little extra effort involved in editing the post (you still have to give a reason for deletions). In fact, there may be no extra effort since, presumably, mods don't have to enter a reason for editing posts in addition to the content of the edit. Even if they do, it's just a copy-paste job.

2) We don't see those reasons unless we ask for them, which has fewer benefits than giving the reason up front because:
-- Mods have to waste time giving additional explanations in this forum when people ask questions
-- People may think their posts were deleted for the wrong reason, and thus get an inaccurate conception of the rules that isn't corrected
-- Other people reading the thread may not know there was a deletion and thus you lose an opportunity to advertise the rules and convince people (especially newcomers) that the mods here are efficient, rule-abiding, fair, and (of course :D) transparent

[StandingCow]

Well, often we will post something after deleting the posts, such as, "keep things on topic" or whatever. But the person that deleted these posts didnt do so.

So, no, we are not going to edit posts, if you guys want a reason, you can ask, PM any mod/admin, and they can find out.

[Discobird]

Well, often we will post something after deleting the posts, such as, "keep things on topic" or whatever. But the person that deleted these posts didnt do so.
Yes, and I appreciate when you guys do that (as well as the rest of the OTF I'm sure). I appreciate it so much that I'd like to see something like it become a policy. :)


So, no, we are not going to edit posts, if you guys want a reason, you can ask, PM any mod/admin, and they can find out.

See my last post for why I think this is the worse of the two options

[StandingCow]

Yes, and I appreciate when you guys do that (as well as the rest of the OTF I'm sure). I appreciate it so much that I'd like to see something like it become a policy. :)



See my last post for why I think this is the worse of the two options

I did see it, but that sorta ties into my first comment, that normally we do have a post with a general statement, and from that you can gather why your post was deleted.

[StandingCow]

BTW, I posted in the thread in question. Even though its sorta too late.

[Discobird]

I did see it, but that sorta ties into my first comment, that normally we do have a post with a general statement, and from that you can gather why your post was deleted.

I'll quote myself:
I appreciate it so much that I'd like to see something like it become a policy.
If you normally do it, why not do it always (or always except for downstream posts that refer to the deleted one)? The marginal labor cost on the mod's part is growing smaller and smaller.

Again, this is something that would benefit everyone, mods included. You save time too (c'mon, you've posted 10 times in this thread already :lincoln: ).

[StandingCow]

I agree, and that isn't a bad suggestion at all. In this case the person that deleted the posts probly just forgot, or figured they posters could figure it out themselves.

[FaKToR]

Again, this is something that would benefit everyone, mods included. You save time too (c'mon, you've posted 10 times in this thread already :lincoln: ).

And in that time ten babies have died needlessly in the world. Think, he let's another ten posts slip and there's ten more babehs.

[Lord Kelvin]

So every time StandingCow posts, a baby dies?

[MeanPatrick]

So every time StandingCow posts, a baby dies?

And baby Jesus cries. :p

[FaKToR]

So every time StandingCow posts, a baby dies?

Had he only been more diligent.

[Degree:N]

No, deletions are not explained unless asked about.Then thats a new rule.

The reason they were deleted is because they were just OTF type spamThey were nothing of the kind, I was asking a question directly based on a reply by Prowl.

[StandingCow]

Then thats a new rule.

They were nothing of the kind, I was asking a question directly based on a reply by Prowl.

You need to read the entire thread.

Also, "Can you post a list of swearwords thx". What does that have to do with tech support or that thread? Nothing.

[FaKToR]

Also, "Can you post a list of swearwords thx".

rofl

[Degree:N]

Prowl commented that a certain word was allowed when pk! self-censored a post. I was wondering how Prowl knew what was and wasn't allowed and asked if there was a reference.

-e-
and thanks for posting that out of context

[StandingCow]

Prowl commented that a certain word was allowed when pk! self-censored a post. I was wondering how Prowl knew what was and wasn't allowed and asked if there was a reference.

-e-
and thanks for posting that out of context

Out of context..? That was your entire post...

[Degree:N]

Out of context of the other replies. I think a better solution would be to ask me and/or pk! to make a thread in this forum on the subject. Just deleting them cold creates more problems (not to mention rude).

[StandingCow]

Out of context of the other replies. I think a better solution would be to ask me and/or pk! to make a thread in this forum on the subject. Just deleting them cold creates more problems (not to mention rude).

Again, you need to read the thread again, I already explained how there is usually a post stating things such as, "get back on topic", etc. The person that deleted them just forgot to do that. In fact, if you go look, there is now one there.

I am not going to ask anybody to make a thread in here, if you have something deleted and there is no explination then you can make a thread in here on your own accord.

[pk!]

My sole deleted contribution was a link to an online random insult generator. While slightly amusing, it wasn't relevant to the thread and I don't mind that it was deleted.

[Degree:N]

Again, you need to read the thread again, I already explained how there is usually a post stating things such as, "get back on topic", etc. How is this relevant to what I posted?

The person that deleted them just forgot to do that.
1. This is obvious, thats partially why I made this thread.
2. Why would a mod say "get back on topic" after "off-topic" posts get deleted?

In fact, if you go look, there is now one there.After I made a thread highlighting the absence of any?

I am not going to ask anybody to make a thread in hereYes, because being an annoyance and insulting to users is a much better course of action.

Already in this thread I see comments that would be more suitable to the OTF than here, but apparently asking the basis of a moderators decision is more appropriate for the OTF than the Talk to the mods forum.

[maggie]

I don't even understand what the hell you people are arguing at this point.

[StandingCow]

Degree:N. I am done arguing with you.

[ScAvenger001]

Btw, another reason we don't edit posts much is that editing destroys the original. Deletion, the original post is intact for future reference.

[Prowl]

Ok, my hands are up, it was me who was so presumptious as to delete off topic posts in a tech support thread, and I added insult to injury by failing to mention this directly to those whose posts I removed.

The reasoning behind my unfathomably rude and abrupt deletions was that simply editing the posts or posting an explanation would serve only to further confuse the thread. Simply removing the irrelevant posts kept the thread on topic.

While it would be nice if there was an automatic system for telling you who deleted your post and for what reason, we currently lack this functionality with vbulletin.

In this instance as pk! correctly surmised, it was simply because the posts in question were self evidently redundant.

As to your question Degree:N there is no definitive list of swear words we are working from. Nor is there a hard and fast rule as to the amount of swearing we tolerate. Moderators discretion remains the rule. Please have a little faith in our judgement.

[neko]

posts aren't deleted very often.

Posts do get deleted on a fairly regular basis

What? :P

[Somedude]

What? :P

Technically, both of us are right... The actual volume of posts deleted is rather small, probably way less than 1%. However, I'm not sure a day goes by where something isn't deleted. :)

[Discobird]

Btw, another reason we don't edit posts much is that editing destroys the original. Deletion, the original post is intact for future reference.
Thanks for that information Scav, in that case deletion + explanatory post seems like the best policy...

The reasoning behind my unfathomably rude and abrupt deletions was that simply editing the posts or posting an explanation would serve only to further confuse the thread. Simply removing the irrelevant posts kept the thread on topic.
How would "Post removed-- please stay on topic" confuse the thread? How do stealth deletions cause less confusion, when threads like this are the predictable result?

While it would be nice if there was an automatic system for telling you who deleted your post and for what reason, we currently lack this functionality with vbulletin.
I agree this would be a nice feature, but it shouldn't replace an explanatory post for the reasons I gave earlier

[Prowl]

Thanks for that information Scav, in that case deletion + explanatory post seems like the best policy...

How would "Post removed-- please stay on topic" confuse the thread? How do stealth deletions cause less confusion, when threads like this are the predictable result?

I agree this would be a nice feature, but it shouldn't replace an explanatory post for the reasons I gave earlier

Ah but the beauty is that this sub-forum is designed for you lot to come and ask questions/bitch at us. the tech support forum does not need to be cluttered with posts.

[Degree:N]

OK there are a couple of clarifications I'd like to put forward.
1. Mod policy is changing from mods posting in a thread they think is going off topic and/or locking it to deleting posts with a post (if they remember) saying to keep it on topic.
2. While I may or may not agree with mod reasoning, the important part is to communicate said reasons.

Some other minor points I don't expect answers to:
3. The policy I mentioned in (1) is not posted anywhere except this thread;
4. The thread I posted in was off topic from the first post;
5. I wasn't concerned with finding who deleted my posts just an explanation;
6. Users are capable of editing their own posts;
7. If moderators need more help they can ask for it;
8. If (3) is correct a new thread announcing such could be made. I would have saved some time if I had known beforehand that non-abusive/profane/violent/PG13 posts could be deleted with no warning.

Please have a little faith in our judgement.The community did have a lot of faith in mod judgement, then after sgossard we had some, after Hadaken we had a little, after lucky we had ... less than a little?

[StandingCow]

Sgossard was an issue that was out of our hands. Hadaken, that was something we did not expect. Lucky... again, it was out of our hands.

I explained once to marty that the mods do not disagree with alex/admins in public, in your eyes we support everything, because that is our job, but behind closed doors if there is something we disagree with we make it known and discuss it. For example, lucky, a lot of discussions took place about what to do with him before he even knew it.

[FaKToR]

For example, lucky, a lot of discussions took place about what to do with him before he even knew it.

Et tu StandingCow?

[Prowl]

and even though I'd rather we discuss more productive information, please bear in mind the following:

1. hadaken and lucky were a package deal.
2. sgossard had nothing to do with anyone on the administration team
3. i like pie*

*preferably hot apple pie.

4. I've not deleted a post for over an hour now and my deleting finger is getting twitchy....

[Prowl]

lets keep this civil now, isn't there something even less controversial to rebel over?

[FaKToR]

no.

[Lord Kelvin]

3. i like pie*

*preferably hot apple pie.

Pumpkin has its merits as well under the proper circumstances.

[Steadman]

[20:31:52] <Steadman> But uh, who deleted my post in the masochism thread and why?
[20:32:06] <Steadman> As far as I know it was not breaking any rules
[20:32:24] <Steadman> But if someone were to enlighten me on this subject
[20:32:27] <Steadman> That would be lovely
[20:32:57] <Steadman> I'll give you ten minutes to respond in IRC

[Discobird]

Ah but the beauty is that this sub-forum is designed for you lot to come and ask questions/bitch at us. the tech support forum does not need to be cluttered with posts.

Did you read what I wrote in this thread?

[maggie]

[20:31:52] <Steadman> But uh, who deleted my post in the masochism thread and why?
[20:32:06] <Steadman> As far as I know it was not breaking any rules
[20:32:24] <Steadman> But if someone were to enlighten me on this subject
[20:32:27] <Steadman> That would be lovely
[20:32:57] <Steadman> I'll give you ten minutes to respond in IRC

Me.

We may not have a specific written rule against posting photos of your self-inflicted wounds, but we also don't necessarily need to encourage that kind of behaviour. No, cutting is not cool, not PG-13, and not appropriate to post pictures of in an advice forum.

[MeanPatrick]

We may not have a specific written rule against posting photos of your self-inflicted wounds, but we also don't necessarily need to encourage that kind of behaviour. No, cutting is not cool, not PG-13, and not appropriate to post pictures of in an advice forum.

They had penty of cuts in The Lord Of The Rings, blood and all. Pirates Of The Caribbean 2 had a pretty good shot of Orlando Boom's pwnt back after his floggin'. :lincoln:

[maggie]

You're far too intelligent to claim that you don't see the difference.

[MeanPatrick]

You're far too intelligent to claim that you don't see the difference.

I never saw the photo, but I see the difference. I'm merely pointing out that in a lot of ways your "PG-13" rules go against the real PG-13 rating.

[maggie]

You are quite correct, but we obviously don't strictly use the movies as our guide. Sometimes, as I'm sure you are well aware, we have to consider intent.

[MeanPatrick]

You are quite correct, but we obviously don't strictly use the movies as our guide. Sometimes, as I'm sure you are well aware, we have to consider intent.

Oh course. However sometimes y'all moderate things were the intent is clear as day and isn't that bad, but still remove it. That goes back again to the rules, but still, I find it iffy.

[marty]

Orlando Boom's pwnt back after his floggin'. :lincoln:masturbation bant

[Steadman]

Well fuck.

[StandingCow]

Well fuck.

Sex talk bant. You are so bant that you are now unbant... or something.

[MeanPatrick]

Sex talk bant. You are so bant that you are now unbant... or something.

So bant that it divided by zero and opened a hole in the space time continuum and destroyed the universe, and by proxy destroyed that funny album cover from Third Reich'n'Roll with Dick Clark on it, which angered God, so he rebooted the universe?

[Steadman]

Yay Residents.

[StandingCow]

So bant that it divided by zero and opened a hole in the space time continuum and destroyed the universe, and by proxy destroyed that funny album cover from Third Reich'n'Roll with Dick Clark on it, which angered God, so he rebooted the universe?

/me head explodes. :o

[MeanPatrick]

/me head explodes. :o

OH NOES! I'VE VIOLATED THE FIRST LAW!!!!!

1. An OTFer may not injure an human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. An OTFer must obey orders given to it by admins.
3. An OTFer must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

[Steadman]

I don't remember voting those mandates into rule.

Fucking facists!

[Prowl]

Did you read what I wrote in this thread?

Yes I did, and I heartily disagree.

An example thread I just made up which would definitly exist under your propsed policy.

1. how do I make my computer stop going beep
2. post deleted due to off topic content
3. post deleted due to reply to post #2
4. Have you tried checking the error codes?
5. post deleted due to reply to post #3
6. thanks for your help but why are there so many posts saying "post deleted"?
7. I dunno
8. This forum sucks, I'm go join another forum.

As you can see, the OTF exists for a reason, please don't expect the same low standards to apply outside of it.

[Modest Genius]

A quick interjection - rather than deleting posts, I used to simply replace their content with something like 'mod edit: warez removed' or whatever. It wasn't much work, and no-one ever had to ask why I did something

[Modest Genius]

So bant that it divided by zero and opened a hole in the space time continuum and destroyed the universe, and by proxy destroyed that funny album cover from Third Reich'n'Roll with Dick Clark on it, which angered God, so he rebooted the universe?http://toastytech.com/evil/errclock.gif

[Discobird]

An example thread I just made up which would definitly exist under your propsed policy.


No it wouldn't-- I said that replies to deleted posts could be deleted without explanation.