A theoretical idea: Starting a country.

[Col. Psycho]

Okay, so with the way the entire world is going to crap with its rediculous laws of control over us as society, i theorized the idea that if we had several billion, we could find some uninhabited island in the world for us to take over and create our own nation. Of course, this isnt going to be easy.

Its purely a discussion. Lets talk about this. List problems and solutions and how you'd sort shit out.

Personally, on the economical front, i was thinking that exportation of medicinal herbs and commerical cannibis would be beneficial to the economy. Im not talking illegal, im talking to legit countries where the consumption is legalised. I also think that if we could produce biofuels that could become a major export, and its not hard. Finally, pharmaceuticals would play a big role. If we could produce common drugs for sale, it would help out with the economy.

this is very random, but role with it, and throw in some ideas and problems you see happening. :O

[Col. Psycho]

Also, becoming an arms exporter might make some cash. Mass production of firearms for the world market, specialized products for current conflicts. etc. agricultural exports, tourism, there is space for shitloads. come on people, think of ideas!

[mahhag]

To how many countries could we sell Cannabis? How many countries have legalised it? Would it really be worth the trouble, as most countries would merely see us as a drug filled (and, possibly weapon-loaded) country?

I could be wrong, but is there a huge market for biofuel?

[GrosPoisson]

Interestingly enough, at one point in the 19th century some members of the Jewish intelligentsia floated the idea of setting up a Jewish state in Madagascar, due to its climate and geographical isolation from anti-semitic populations (all of Europe, the Middle East). The plan was to accumulate huge sums of money and buy up large portions of the land from the resident population. Sounded reasonable, but ended up being another discarded idea in the history books.

Ignoring the international repercussions of having a state economy based primarily on weapons-manufacturing or cannabis-growing, I think a more immediate issue would be the neighboring countries. I brought up the "Israel in Madagascar" example because I'm operating under the assumption that the only land available for purchase would be in Africa. In that case, the country would need some kind of competent military defense force to prevent every asshole in the region with a pickup and an RPG launcher from trying to attack and rob the country blind. Even with a huge sum of money available to the country, mercenaries are still only a temporary option.

[marty]

There was a libertarian group that brought sand into the middle of the ocean and created an artificial island far away from any nation. They created their own country based on libertarian ideals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva

It was quickly invaded and conquered by the Kingdom of Tonga, a worthless country 1/5th the population of the minor city I live in.

If anyone is going to make a small country in the future, the most important thing at the beginning is defense. You will need to have the equipment, skills, and logistics to stand up to the third-world pieces of shit and the first-world pieces of shits backing them up (Tonga invaded with the explicit permission and moral support of Australia).

Only after defense -- proving that you are able to hold the land -- should you start worrying about the economy.

Drugs are probably out of the question -- gg legitimacy. Actually, any kind of growing is probably a bad idea. Small land is almost always inferior to larger land for that kind of stuff.

It would probably have to be tourism or light industry. Maybe a country of computer experts or factories for small gadgets.

Hell, if it's an island in the Pacific close to the equator, maybe you could have the economy based around a spaceport.

[Chunkywheats]

How would one go about defending an Island with a limited population? First and foremost, we would have to suck the dick of every major super power around, to keep us from getting killed. Our state would have to follow western ideals for the most part in order to get the backing of USA/Europe. Which may or may not be to everyone's liking.

The best bet for economy would be tourism, easy enough. But that wouldn't seem very satisfying, since it would take away from our self-sufficience. Which brings me to my next point. We WOULD have to be partially self sufficient. We would have to somewhat feed ourselves, so livestock, some sort of edible crop (corn, wheat), fruit trees (apple, orange, etc.), and perhaps potatoes or some other root plants would all be necessities. We would have to run our own powerplant(s) and we would need our own Physicians.

I like Marty's idea of a "technical" island, with either computer science experts or small gadgets factories. I think small gadgets would be comparable to an agrcultural state, in that a few small factories wouldn't be enough to turn a profit. So I'm gonna say a computer expert island would the best bet. We could also be an "inventor" island that would solely try to impove upon/make new gadgets, or perhaps an "architect" island would work to. We would be responsible for designing buildings, and perhaps eventually set up a small, well respected college/university of some sort.

[Captain Colon]

Hell, if it's an island in the Pacific close to the equator, maybe you could have the economy based around a spaceport.
A ground station to track and communicate with geosynchronous satellites could be useful, assuming researchers have to pay to get time on it. A telescope could also be an option.

If it's near fishable areas, you could set up a tuna factory and have like 90% of the population employed in it for way less than minimum wage d:D

Like Marty said, defense would be a problem. Pretty much any piece of shit country with an active military could take us over...war/annexing would be inevitable to start with, the only way to prevent future attempts would be to prove that invading/holding the place is totally unprofitable, and we'd have to be pulling some serious guerrilla warfare for that, while still sort of respecting rules of conventional warfare so we can maintain legitimacy after we beat them off (lol beat them off)

[marty]

Great.

So we need Uglygun and Garry Owen to keep us alive

and Modest Genius to keep us afloat

[neko]

Why don't we just invade that Republic of Minerva and take it back from the Tongans?

[Shloom]

Drugs are probably out of the question -- gg legitimacy. Actually, any kind of growing is probably a bad idea. Small land is almost always inferior to larger land for that kind of stuff.

.


Not many countries have large scale hemp production yet it is in highlol demand


I would like to discuss cannabis as a cashcrop for our theoretical nation if the mods will allow it

[Col. Psycho]

So i was thinking about this and yes i realise defense would be a problem. what if we had to align ourselves with another country like a commonwealth? not in the sense that we'd be owned by another country, but we'd have a sort of mutual assistance pact, with them protecting us whilst we were building ourselves up...

Also, the africa idea wouldnt work too well unless we have a huge assed army on our side, with a small army, we could hold them back, but if they had to rush us with everything they had we'd lose. refer to last paragraph for a solution... Anyway, history dictates that when a predominantly white government controls a portion of land in africa, they get pwned quickly by the locals and outside forces. Beyond that, as people have mentioned in this thread, they would take the country, regardless of political or national agenda, because they are like parasites sucking the blood out of a new animal.

We'd need to either find or buy an island that is large enough to sustain the people and economy, but not big enough to attract too much attention. I'd prefer an island that wasnt really inhabited beforehand because there is no political agenda then. Also, we could recruit younger generations from other nations, and employ our own army even before we set foot on the soil of the new country. It would cost alot, but, it would be better.

What im suggesting is that if we had to recruit several thousand young men and with the promise of thier own country, we train them using ex-military soldiers from other countries, and supply them with simple but effective equipment, we'd have a decent defense force which could protect us from most other shitty little countries who'd try take us over with toyota pickups and RPGs. :)

You can pick up BMP's, T72's and other armor dirt cheap these days, so we'd have a mechanized force, for example.

Something not many people know about - but the conflict in Sierra Leone had a rebel side with around 15 000 rag-tag troops. They were beaten back by 150 well trained ex military troops armed with Mi24 helicopters and basic armor. What im trying to get at, is that if we had to employ a PMC to train and build an army, and we had to buy decent equipment, we could have a small force of 2500 people and still defend ourselves properly.

my mind has gone blank with what i wanted to say next, so i'll post something else later.

[marty]

2500?

I was thinking of a reaaaaally small country with 200 starting people at most. More than that, and you might as well just secede from your home country instead of making one from scratch.

EDIT:

I think for the purposes of this thread, we should "claim" an actual island and base our discussions on that.

I nominate Malden Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malden_Island)

It is a 39 square miles in area and uninhabited, just 240 miles south of the equator. It's under Kiribati jurisdiction, and it is recognized by the US government. Choosing this island means that the US will probably be hostile to us, but not necessarily intervene militarily (because its uninhabited).

Going by Singapore and Hong Kong's population density, we can probably fit 625,000 people in there eventually. The problem is that we would have no resources at all. But that's okay, Singapore and Hong Kong don't have resources either, but look at them.

Problem 1: Someone already claims it.

Kiribati does, but this is their entire military:
http://www.geocities.com/pacnavies/images/savea.jpg

But that's irrelevant, because Australia and New Zealand have agreed to provide its defense. We might have to fight them. Malden is so remote that they might not come after us, if it weren't for the other thing.

Problem 2: It's been declared a wildlife sanctuary by an international treaty.

Seizing and "developing it" will NOT gain us any sympathy. Actually, the fact that it is a wildlife sanctuary might make it more likely for major powers to intervene and kill us.


We'll always have problem 1 wherever we go, sadly. Problem 2 isn't inevitable, however, but because Malden is so big, we should overlook that.

Note that this is only the first large island I saw, and there are probably a lot of better options to talk about for the purpose of the thread

[Col. Psycho]

yeah 2500 sounds like a large force but im talking later on, we'd need something at least that big to defend ourselves. malden looks like an idea. maybe we should use that as the template for this discussion. :o

although aus and NZ wouldnt be stoked with us militarily, im sure we could defend the island. :o and they wouldnt all out bomb it if we had woman and children there. they'd probably try to make a landing and have a ground war..

[marty]

IMO, whatever Australia does, we'd be fucked

Unless they decided we weren't worth their time :P

[Daywalker]

there has to be some good deserted island, like the ones used for nuclear testing

[Scraps]

What about October Revolution Island?

[proudinfidel117]

didnt israel start off like that? a small country surrounded by enemies? once we are recognized as a country we could buy 1st rate weapons from 1st world countries, and if the invaders are 3rd world we could have a chance in hell.

[Col. Psycho]

Instead of buying foreign weapons, we could develop our own. but of course, we'll have to use foreign weapons to start out with. :)

back to economy: What is good options for a strong economy? i was thinking that maybe becoming a successful offshore banking nation like the Cayman islands or like Switzerland could be good. If we could attract people to bank with us, we could make profit off of the interest collected.

I think we need to be as self sufficient as possible, i.e most of our materials we need to be able to produce locally. Food needs to be local product if possible. i.e agriculture and large fish industry. We could also put down a port which could serve as a lay-by for shipping companies who need somewhere to stop over for repairs, etc. If we could become a large exporter of biofuels, maybe we could also pioneer better biofuel ran engines, which we could export to other countries, as well as other automotive related parts.

[Col. Psycho]

didnt israel start off like that? a small country surrounded by enemies? once we are recognized as a country we could buy 1st rate weapons from 1st world countries, and if the invaders are 3rd world we could have a chance in hell.

maybe you are right, but remember that they were pretty much given weapons and training and money to start out, as well as permission to control the lands they live in. they didnt have to worry about international pressure as much as local militant pressure. so that doesnt really apply to us. D:

[proudinfidel117]

maybe you are right, but remember that they were pretty much given weapons and training and money to start out, as well as permission to control the lands they live in. they didnt have to worry about international pressure as much as local militant pressure. so that doesnt really apply to us. D:

then we need to broadcast out message of oppression to every media outlet we can find to get popular support:D




lie our asses off, then

[pk!]

Whatever our defense budget, it can't cost more than our income. This is the same as our value to an enemy, and therefore they can make a profit by taking us over with any investment lower than the value.

Since our defense budget can only be a fraction of our income/seed money, a purely military defense strategy can never work.

What we could do is establish ourselves as a social and economic safe haven to selected people and organisations, so that we are always increasing in strength and numbers. Crucial to startup would be the sponsorship of a major military and economic power, so we can't do anything to upset them, e.g the export of drugs or weapons.

[mahhag]

Mandatory military service (IDF?)

It seems like a well trained but smaller force could keep other third world countries at bay (unless they have decently trained troops) example: Israel. War of Independence? Five countries invading them? Those countries got their shit ruined.

[GrosPoisson]

It seems like a well trained but smaller force could keep other third world countries at bay (unless they have decently trained troops)

Along with heavy backing from an established power or powers, as pk! suggested this new country try to obtain.

I think pk! has a really good point about having things not easily stolen or taken over. Technical stuff that needs a high level of training for all staff involved would seem to be good in that respect.

[Col. Psycho]

well. assuming we have billions, we COULD buy an island from a poor island nation. im sure they'll sell us one for several hundred million, if not several million. :P

that allows us to do what we want. if we own the rights to it, we can plonk our military down there (For fear of the country trying to steal the island back) and set up shop.

[Yiggs]

What if we got a small island and had it become a protectorate or soemthing of the US. That way we can be militarily protected and remain somewhat autonomous, possibly become a locale for things that are illeagal elsewhere.

[Dr Boners]

Lets just buy the Turks and Caicos, they were real keen on joining canada, let's turn them into OTF land, it's like canada, without the suck.

[BlindSite]

There was a libertarian group that brought sand into the middle of the ocean and created an artificial island far away from any nation. They created their own country based on libertarian ideals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva

It was quickly invaded and conquered by the Kingdom of Tonga, a worthless country 1/5th the population of the minor city I live in.

If anyone is going to make a small country in the future, the most important thing at the beginning is defense. You will need to have the equipment, skills, and logistics to stand up to the third-world pieces of shit and the first-world pieces of shits backing them up (Tonga invaded with the explicit permission and moral support of Australia).

Only after defense -- proving that you are able to hold the land -- should you start worrying about the economy.

Drugs are probably out of the question -- gg legitimacy. Actually, any kind of growing is probably a bad idea. Small land is almost always inferior to larger land for that kind of stuff.

It would probably have to be tourism or light industry. Maybe a country of computer experts or factories for small gadgets.

Hell, if it's an island in the Pacific close to the equator, maybe you could have the economy based around a spaceport.


Actually it was Fiji, NZ, Tonga, the cook islands and samoa as well as Australia...

Oh and we need to think about stuff like sanitation and a food and water source. Unless we're going to import all of our own food...

[Col. Psycho]

read up, ive been talking about food source. Water wouldnt be too hard to get a hold of. sanitation would need alot of work. piping and treatment plant(s) would have to be established, it wouldnt be easy. :O

[HostileIntent]

I think militarilly and economically it would be smart to initially tie ourselves to larger countries by encouraging foreign investment and development of technology and biotech industry etc. Once major corporations and rich startups were established in our new country we would have the military backing of larger countries who would never allow their industries to get taken over by random people. This would also provide jobs and training for our citizens. We could also raise massive amounts of money that way for infrastructue and even if we had a conservative tax policy we would have large amounts of money being brought in each year by taxing industry.

Our first steps would be development of infrastructue like power plants, large highways, housing, and atleast one new international airport and large shipyard. We should also develop atleast a moderate defense force. We would do this through conscription and perhaps we could ally ourselves with a larger country who could supply and train our forces.

I then suggest we pour money into educating our citizens and devloping top notch universities. Until then I suggest we pay for our citizens to attend foreign universities with the condition that they come back and work in our country or for our country for a set period afterwards.

We should also invest in our military as previously mentioned and perhaps pursue the military technologies market?

[OMFG it g00]

I vote we gank alot of small islands, so we can use boats as a major form of transportation, and its prolly not to hard to find like a couple dozen 2-5 mile islands heh
also alot harder to take by military force, like the japanese islands in WW2. that might help discourage invasion etc
Plus it would make it easier to divide stuff? you know like per island heh...

[Noirceur]

What language would the place speak?
Of course, I have to mention this first:
i theorized the idea that if we had several billion, we could find some uninhabited island in the world for us to take over and create our own nation
By several billion, do you mean several billion people or several billion dollars?

[Col. Psycho]

several billion of whatever currency strongest. Euros, Pounds Sterling, or US Dollars. I'd expect that we'd talk english in our nation, since we as the theoretical founding fathers all pretty much speak it anyway. Depending on where most of our population comes from, that will define what languages become accepted as official languages in our country.

If you offer a shitload of people from around the world citizenship in a new country, im pretty sure alot of people would be interested. well, i hope theyd be. :P

[Noirceur]

So, would we be "we" as in the OTF, the OTF and its extensions, or something else?

I think that the first priority after defense(if not before) would have to be setting up alliances with developed countries.

[kreket]

well. assuming we have billions, we COULD buy an island from a poor island nation. im sure they'll sell us one for several hundred million, if not several million. :P

that allows us to do what we want. if we own the rights to it, we can plonk our military down there (For fear of the country trying to steal the island back) and set up shop.

I think this is the best line of thinking. Several Micronesian nations are afraid that their landmass will disappear with rising sealevels. We might even get it cheaply if we managed to sell our citizenships. (Perfectly available method if we were to perform mass fraud and marry a lot of Micronesians. Usually followed up with a family reuinion. Altough some western governments sometime s checks if people are really married. There are also some minimum of years of marriage required before permanent citizenship.)

All you really need to survive the coming rise of the sea level, is a couple of discarded oil platforms with huge living areas. Dump these outside the beach. Even an old luxury liner rammed full speed onto some of those islands would provide landmass for dcades to come, assuming we could stabilise it with concrete and steel, and then dump enough mud around it all.


I believe it would be easier if we sign a lot of international agreements first. Like interpol cooperation, a memorandum of understanding that the place will not become a tax paradise, a ban on NBC & WMD, signature to various environmental treaties, defined use and property of the seabed (extremely important due to the value the organisms and the substances in the sea can have). Our biggest problem would probably be to be taken seriously. We shouldn't be fighting someone else with a great power guarantee to exist. We should be the ones with the great power guarantee!

(You can just hear the Paradox games in that last sentence, right?)


Perhaps it would be easiest to start within a federation.

[Col. Psycho]

:| why do i find your post sarcastic and insulting... :/

if you dont like the idea, dont bash it. :(

[marty]

I don't see anything sarcastic or insulting there...

[kreket]

Actually I'm quite serious. It is IMO the most realistic way to pull it off. I'm sorry if I sounded stark. I guess I go a little nuts when I'm in the mood for fictional escapades.



Fake marriages are not too unusual, and it might work. The idea about the luxury liner came from a recent news piece:

German minesweeper headbangs to Norwegian rock. (http://www.bt.no/lokalt/sf/article342544.ece)

Parts of the rescue process. (http://www.bt.no/lokalt/sf/article342740.ece)

To most of you this should be gibberish, but it does have some pretty pictures. Must have been one of those bad days at work for the crew. Ramming the wessel at top speed right on the spot. They needed several attempts before they could get it off.