Something Unpleasant

[Garryowen]

I hope this is not true, it was e-mailed to me...

Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr. Old was taken from a Shopping mall in Liverpool, by two 10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson. They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mommy. Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes and pushed Batteries up his anus. It was actually worse than this...

What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body. They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created. These two boys, even being boys, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident. This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities. We cannot let this happen. They will also leave early this year only serving just over half of their sentence. One paper even stated that Robert may go on to a University. They are getting away with their crime.

They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away - in return they get a new life. Please read it carefully... Then add your name at the end... And send it to everyone you can! Please add your name and location to the list and send it to friends and family. Please copy this e-mail (highlight text, right click, copy and paste into a new email) instead of forwarding so we do not get arrows at the beginning of the sentences.

If you are the 1000th person to sign, please forward email to cust.ser.cs@gtnet.gov.uk and attention it to Lady Justice Butler-Sloss. Then start the list over again and send to your friends and family. The Love-Bug virus took less than 72 hours to reach the world. I hope this one does as well. We need to protect our family and friends from people like Robert and Jon. One day they may be living next to you and your small children, without your knowledge. If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!

PLEASE RE-POST OR E-MAIL TO ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS! WE CANNOT LET THIS HAPPEN. MONSTERS AT 10...IMAGINE AS ADULTS?! KEEP THIS GOING!

IF YOU HESITATE FOR EVEN A SECOND...THINK OF YOUR SON, OR DAUGHTER, NIECES OR NEPHEWS! IT COULD HAVE BEEN YOUR CHILD!

[CheeseSteakJim]

what the FUCK

[StandingCow]

Moved to discussion.

[cpt.mars]

Finally, in June 2001, the boys were released from custody under stringent conditions and with new identities. An open-ended injunction in place when the boys were released prevents the publication of any information that could lead to their identification or whereabouts. Although unconfirmed "sightings" of the boys have been reported, their current whereabouts remains hidden from the general public.

Some versions of the petition (including the one above) claim that the boys were to be relocated to Australia. However, given that the boys are to remain indefinitely under the supervision of UK authorities as a condition of release, this seems unlikely. It is also highly improbable that the Australian government would have agreed to such a relocation.

Given the horrific nature of this crime, it is not surprising that the original sentence and subsequent early release of Venables and Thompson has caused such outrage, not only in the UK, but in the rest of the world as well. Originally, this email petition was undoubtedly a heart-felt expression of this outrage.

However, regardless of any intrinsic value that the petition might have once possessed, one fact is paramount. Rightly or wrongly, these boys were released and relocated years ago, and no amount of names on an email petition is going to change this. The continued circulating of this message will serve no good purpose

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/jamie-bulger-email-petition.html

I remember a MySpace bulletin/chain about this over a year ago. Unless of course, you were just wanting to discuss the issue of granted anonymity in a case such as this...

[Garryowen]

So they didn't let those fucking monsters loose?

[Shadow]

It's true.

From what I heard, it was just like good ol' convict Australia - Send the English convicts out here to live. They were sent here with new identities and new lives.

Fucking unbelievable.

[mahhag]

You guys are extremely harsh on those kids. Although I agree what they did is one of the most horrible things someone could EVER do, no one really seems to blaim anyone except them. Thompson's dad beat him and sexually assaulted him along with the other seven kids and mother. Why isn't he the one being thrown in jail? This is the kind of shit that happens when parents do such terrifying things to their kids. That last sentence may seem like I'm trying to say the Jamie had it coming/deserved it, but I am in NO WAY advocating such an act, I'm only trying to move the horrors of the parents into the light.

EDIT Fundamental Attribution Error

[Garryowen]

You guys are extremely harsh on those kids. Although I agree what they did is one of the most horrible things someone could EVER do, no one really seems to blaim anyone except them. Thompson's dad beat him and sexually assaulted him along with the other seven kids and mother. Why isn't he the one being thrown in jail? This is the kind of shit that happens when parents do such terrifying things to their kids. That last sentence may seem like I'm trying to say the Jamie had it coming/deserved it, but I am in NO WAY advocating such an act, I'm only trying to move the horrors of the parents into the light.

EDIT Fundamental Attribution Error


Are you crazy?

I unfortunatly know lots of people who have had HORRIBLE things doen to them, and you knwo what, none of them have ever felt the need to torture a toddler to death. A dog bites someone (even a dog that's been mistreated) it is put down. Why do we not do the same for broken people? Some cats are beyong redemption or absolution.

[Teedy]

I agree with Garry. Children CAN be altered by the fact they are mistreated by their parents, but they still fundamentally have something else in them that caused that actions. You cannot blame everything about a person on their environmental upbringing. Even if that played a part in this disgusting act the children STILL knew, human beings can read emotions on other people VERY well, especially children, they knew.

[Prowl]

It's true.

From what I heard, it was just like good ol' convict Australia - Send the English convicts out here to live. They were sent here with new identities and new lives.

Fucking unbelievable.

anyone reading the hoax slayer site will note that they were more than likely NOT sent to australia, though they were given new identitys.

It is wrong that they are let out so early, but that's just ous shitty criminal justice system in action. Half sentences are now a thing of the past, it's more like a third currently. >:/

[Captain Colon]

What garry and teedy said...actually, we just had this discussion in the firebox last month, with the hobo beating kids. I was like the only person who thought "hey maybe the kids are just FUCKED up," everyone else wanted to blame the parents, even after someone posted a letter from the stepmother of one of the kids that told how they tried everything to get him in line. It's like nobody wants to accept that people can be selfish and evil...or rather, that CERTAIN people can be selfish and evil, because obviously someone selfish and evil must have warped these children's minds!

[MGCeilidh]

So they didn't let those fucking monsters loose?

They were paroled after their minimum sentance was served. The parole board took 6 months over it before deciding that they were no longer a threat to public safety. They were released on a life license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_licence) which means that if it is ever determined that they are indeed a risk to the public they go back to jail...

No offence but things akin to this happen this side of the pond as well see "Pennys law" in NY for example which sets the sentance at 7.5 - 15 years to life for 14 or 15 year olds tried and convicted as adults for murder...

[mahhag]

It just seems that the two seperate opinions (inherently evil vs. external pressures) can't really be proven/whatever without a big nature/nurture discussion. Peh.

[mahhag]

Are you crazy?

I unfortunatly know lots of people who have had HORRIBLE things doen to them, and you knwo what, none of them have ever felt the need to torture a toddler to death. A dog bites someone (even a dog that's been mistreated) it is put down. Why do we not do the same for broken people? Some cats are beyong redemption or absolution.

Because there's a difference between cats and dogs and humans.

We DO put people "down", but these KIDS are under 18. That strikes me as worrysome that you would liken putting down a domesticated animal to executing a pre-teen child.

[Captain Colon]

Because there's a difference between cats and dogs and humans.

We DO put people "down", but these KIDS are under 18. That strikes me as worrysome that you would liken putting down a domesticated animal to executing a pre-teen child.
It always strikes me as worrisome that people put humans on such a high pedestal that they would let one run rampant and kill other humans or otherwise be a drain on humanity.
It just seems that the two seperate opinions (inherently evil vs. external pressures) can't really be proven/whatever without a big nature/nurture discussion. Peh.
Different factors apply to each person so there's nothing to prove, really.

[marty]

or otherwise be a drain on humanity.So, wait. Are you against a nanny state or what? :p

[Captain Colon]

what

[Chunkywheats]

man, this is pretty fireboxy, but it seems that I agree with Teedy et al. Sure, having shitty parents can fuck a person up, but unstable is unstable, and I would rather do what is best for the masses as opposed to giving 2 killers a free pass.

[mahhag]

man, this is pretty fireboxy, but it seems that I agree with Teedy et al. Sure, having shitty parents can fuck a person up, but unstable is unstable, and I would rather do what is best for the masses as opposed to giving 2 killers a free pass.

And what is best for the masses, killing two 10 year olds?

The problem I have is that people place the blame solely on the perpetrator of the crime, when they should look deeper into the motiv for such an action, whether it is influenced by family or friends or etc. Everyone seems so keen on accepting peer-pressure and its bad effects, yet others then can easily say "Oh, kill these two kids".

[Teedy]

I didn't dare place the blame on the perpetrator solely, let me give you an alcohilism study from my Psych class.

40% of children who have alcoholic parents and grow up in a home that does not in any way promote or drink alcohol will become alcoholic. 75% of children that grow up in a home promoting alcohol and being of descent of an alcoholic will become alcoholics themselves. 35% of children who grow up in a home that drinks/promotes alcohol but do not have alcoholic parents will become alcoholics themselves.

That study was done in a large number of foster homes over 40 years. It's widely accepted as quite accurate, and I may have the %'s of by a few points, but rest assured they are quite close to the statistical values from the study. That shows in the case of alcoholism that BOTH nature and nurture are to blame for the event, but mostly it is nature.

These children may have been raised by the worst kinds of parents, beaten, sexually abused, alcohol, domestic violence, poverty anything, and they CHOSE to kill that boy. That is the difference between humanity and animals. We have the cognitive ability to choose, the majority of animals act on instinct with little or no cognitive process in action. The children could also have been inherently evil people and been raised by saintly parents and again chosen to kill that boy. Either way a young boy was murdered by two others.

The parent's should be partially accountable, but there's never going to be any way that you could determine to what extent they are, or what their punishment should be. All people have the capacity for great evil, but only some choose to exercise it. Whether that is because of experience or simply having a screwed up mind as some would say is not something we can currently judge properly.


In defense of those two boys, commiting such an act, whether they are inherently evil or not will leave a mark upon them. They carry it with them as do their families. The parents of the dead boy are not the only ones that suffered. Something society forgets all too often is that criminals are still human beings. They have emotions, passions, hopes and are still capable of normal cognitive process.

[Col. Psycho]

i slapped a kid on a bus on the way home when i still lived down in london, because he gave me shit. His mum got the police on my ass, and they had video footage from the cctv cameras on the bus of me slapping him, and they called me a bully. then they sent a similar statement to the above atrocities mentioned by garryowen but with all of the harsh details, to my mother, who then burst into tears because she thought i was a bully and becoming like those dudes. i went to the police station to speak to one of the cops who gave me a stern talking to saying that i was acting like a bully and because it was my first offense they wouldnt add anything to my record.

not once did they ask for my side of the story, which would have provided some reason as to why i slapped the kid in the first place. he was insulting me and my parents, and at that age (14) you dont sit down and take it infront of your mates, and you dont take it when you know what is being said isnt true. i acted like an ass by slapping the kid, but justice was to be served. in the end, his parents felt i was the bully.

the reason im posting this? well, a) i believe those asstards should be in prison anyway and b) i thought i'd mention that the statement is used as a shock tactic, and it works, because it alerts you to what can go wrong with people.

:P

[Shloom]

You guys are extremely harsh on those kids. Although I agree what they did is one of the most horrible things someone could EVER do, no one really seems to blaim anyone except them. Thompson's dad beat him and sexually assaulted him along with the other seven kids and mother. Why isn't he the one being thrown in jail? This is the kind of shit that happens when parents do such terrifying things to their kids. That last sentence may seem like I'm trying to say the Jamie had it coming/deserved it, but I am in NO WAY advocating such an act, I'm only trying to move the horrors of the parents into the light.

EDIT Fundamental Attribution Error

I was born to a poor, drunk, drugged up, abusive, crazy son of a bitch and I haven't yet put batteries in anyones ass or murdered someone. I say kill the little bastards. At that age you know what your doing, they knew they were torturing and killing him.

[OMFG it g00]

Jon Venables and Robert Thompson had truanted on February 12, 1993. That day, in the New Strand Shopping Centre, Bootle, they attempted to walk off with a young child. They had succeeded in luring a two-year-old boy away from his mother, and were in the process of taking him out of the shopping centre, when she noticed him missing, ran outside, and called him back.

from wikipedia...assuming this is true..fuck them, they should be sent to jail for life. Pre-meditated murder and torture? I don't car how old you are thats just unforgivable...only 8 years? its a minimum of 25 for first degree murder, and this is close enough
and even after that they should be in maximum security insitutes and shit like that

[Wheat]

After oh, the age of 8, you know right from wrong.

:/.

[mahhag]

I was born to a poor, drunk, drugged up, abusive, crazy son of a bitch and I haven't yet put batteries in anyones ass or murdered someone. I say kill the little bastards. At that age you know what your doing, they knew they were torturing and killing him.

You're right, the environment has no influence on your actions. How foolish of me to assume otherwise.

[Wheat]

You're right, the environment has no influence on your actions. How foolish of me to assume otherwise.

He isin't saying they dont, he is simply stating (unless you are mentally incapable) you know right from wrong. Everyone does. :/.

I mean, I know at five kicking my sister or somthing wouldn't of been right.

[kreket]

If you kidnap a toddler, torture and kill it, it is not because you are "anxious" or "insecure" because of a difficult childhood. You are able to do such things because you don't feel anxiety about it, you feel confident and you are arrogant enough to sacrifice others. You wouldn't do something like that if you were the sort to wonder what would happen to you because of your actions. These people don't feel they need to listen to adults or any other people for guidance, knowledge and self-improvement.

What I will grant them is that they probably don't know much about self-improving and that self realising from Maslows' pyramid, outside the field of sadism. Their ability to reflect on issues is most likely severely hampered, hindering their ability to do anything that doesn't smack of crossing the ethical borders of others. Their role models may simply not have been up for it.

These kids were evil, that is my take on this. That they were made evil or are inherently evil doesn't change this. They need correction, guidance and protection from themselves, should they coexist with society. Punishments can help with that to some degree. The questions are, are some forms of punishments more ethical than others and did that stint in prison rehabilitate them?


Another factor is that the pair of them did this together. Some group mechanic was at work while doing it. If we take the excuse some druggies make for falling back to earlier habits when they leave prison, they say that the old environment they were around is the only ready-made network they have when they come back outside. Crimes made in groups or enabled because of certain connections should be punished with restrictions on relations. Forcibly disbanding a clique should do them a world of good, if it so supposedly makes people into severe criminals and addict-criminals.

[mahhag]

He isin't saying they dont, he is simply stating (unless you are mentally incapable) you know right from wrong. Everyone does. :/.

I mean, I know at five kicking my sister or somthing wouldn't of been right.

Yes, but right and wrong is completely subjective, and learning your "rights and wrongs" from parents who would beat and molest the children and EACHOTHER, well, you are going to have some terribly warped view on what's "right and wrong".

Do you see what I'm saying?