Why

[killerfluffy]

were almost half the posts from Duff's thread excised? Not liking someone and thinking they're making a stupid descision and saying as much definitely isn't against the forum rules.

[Prowl]

from looking at the deleted posts it was a lot of utter tosh.

I don't think the culture of the OTF has been diminished by the deletion of posts in that thread.

[killerfluffy]

I'm not saying that the culture of the OTF is diminished by the deletion of those posts. What I'm saying is that they didn't break any rules, and while yes, they were rather mean or harsh they reflected a lot of the genuine feelings that a lot of people on the forums felt. As I said, if you make yourself a reputation make it so that most people don't like you and then say you're having a kid, you're just kidding yourself if you expect to get a ticker tape parade and genuine well wishes.

So please, for my sake, cite the rules that those posts violated in the OTF that warranted their deletion. Because if there isn't a rule that it violates than I can't come up with a good reason for why they were deleted. Unless the administration is saying that the only opinions that can be shared on the forum are positive ones and that people who may have something negative to say aren't allowed to post them or are subject to having their posts removed.

[Modest Genius]

oh come on, that was the best thread we've had in AGES

and no rules were broken either.

EDIT: it also looks like more posts in that thread were deleted than were left intact

[Noirceur]

were almost half the posts from Duff's thread excised? Not liking someone and thinking they're making a stupid descision and saying as much definitely isn't against the forum rules.
Because we should all be happy for him
And sad for this child

[maggie]

I decided that the thread needed cleaning, since a lot of it was just jerkish behaviour and spam. One I got started, I realized that if I cleaned it up and left posts like yours, which was actually a carefully thought out post, I'd be questioned as to why I allowed that and not the posts that were just plain asshattery. Essentially, it seemed like an all-or-nothing situation.
I didn't feel that a thread announcing his imminent fatherhood was the place to discuss Duff's personal qualities. If any admin or mod feels differently, they're welcome to undelete as much or little as they choose.

[Modest Genius]

when in doubt, leave things intact

I for one think the widespread condemnation of teenage absentee fatherhood is a GOOD think to have in there, if only so duff sees it.

[maggie]

Condemnation of teenage absentee fatherhood is good.

Calling someone a 'fucked up sonofabitch', making dead baby jokes, referring to women who date army guys as scheming evil bitches, and calling the father a douchebag - these things have othing to do with constructive debate, and no place in a thread about a forum member having a kid.

Most of the other stuff I deleted was about whether or not Psyche was fat, explaining the history of judaism, and talking about picking up chicks in church.

[StandingCow]

Most of the other stuff I deleted was about whether or not Psyche was fat, explaining the history of judaism, and talking about picking up chicks in church.

Its amazing how many turns a thread can take, lol.

[Daywalker]

This thread and its pruning are examples of why the forums are going down hill.

What do you want us to post and talk about? Garbage like this is really turning me off to this mod assuming it is ever released, are all the admins on the servers going to be as anal?

[StandingCow]

This thread and its pruning are examples of why the forums are going down hill.

What do you want us to post and talk about? Garbage like this is really turning me off to this mod assuming it is ever released, are all the admins on the servers going to be as anal?

No, the forums are going downhill because there is no mod, and its not our fault, its you guys. Its very easy to stay within the rules, most people don't ever get banned.

The forums and the servers are two totally seperate entities.

[siddy]

No, the forums are going downhill because there is no mod, and its not our fault, its you guys. Its very easy to stay within the rules, most people don't ever get banned.

The forums and the servers are two totally seperate entities.


What are you talking about Cow?

The forums were dying far before the mod died. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just stating the case.

[StandingCow]

What are you talking about Cow?

The forums were dying far before the mod died. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just stating the case.

These forums have been dying since FA 2.5... LOL :D

[siddy]

...but they're really dying now.

I find a lot of people are enjoying it less and less.

I think I just few the forums because it's part of my daily routine.

[StandingCow]

...but they're really dying now.

I find a lot of people are enjoying it less and less.

I think I just few the forums because it's part of my daily routine.

I probly don't notice because I am not as active anymore. All I can suggest is making an intelligent post stating what rules should be changed and why.

Us mods only enforce the rules, we don't make them... talk to scav, prowl and maddog. :)

[siddy]

I'm not much of an OTF member as some of the other, more common names are.

I agreed with their idea that they want to keep the board PG-13, as there will be a lot of light shed onto the forums when the mod is released, and we would like to keep it light for the new people coming around. I understand that, and respect it. It's certainly not my money that is paying for this server.

However, the mod is dead. Dead, dead, dead. I don't see any reason to flog a dead horse. What are you guys trying to keep running? A lot of good people have left, and a lot of good people are leaving.

If you guys want to run this into the ground, feel free. Your server, your money, but if you want to keep this a decent community, lighten up.

edit: I've never been an 'outspoken' member of the community. I've never been banned, never had a warning. But this is just getting ridiculous.

[Daywalker]

No, the forums are going downhill because there is no mod, and its not our fault, its you guys. Its very easy to stay within the rules, most people don't ever get banned.

The forums and the servers are two totally seperate entities.


I don't think I've heard any rule violations cited for Duff's thread, yet look at what happened there. You guys are killing the forums, the mod is dead and all you do is direct your energy at raining on our parade. We'll be the only ones around in the off chance this mod comes back, so you better make it so we want to stay because I don't think a lot of peopel will be around for much longer.

[StandingCow]

I don't think I've heard any rule violations cited for Duff's thread, yet look at what happened there. You guys are killing the forums, the mod is dead and all you do is direct your energy at raining on our parade. We'll be the only ones around in the off chance this mod comes back, so you better make it so we want to stay because I don't think a lot of peopel will be around for much longer.

The duff thread isn't my issue, so I am not going to touch that.

We direct our energy on enforcing the rules, not raining on your parade, we don't post "Hey how can we make this place not fun"? In the mod section.

Again, post what rules you guys think should be changed in one thread. And give good reasons. Maybe one of the admins will agree.

[Modest Genius]

what's the point, if you ignore the rules and censor stuff not covered by them anyway?

EDIT: additions to our complaints on this thread: it was closed without a posted reason, and I can't spot a rules violation to justify doing so

[maggie]

A clear case of admin aboose.

P.S. Rule #3 - Don't be a jerk to those around you.

[vecdran]

You know, I normally don't chime in on these "THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, but some people do have a point. You guys are starting to moderate TOO much. A rule that baffled me was the prevention of swearing in the first posts and titles. Jesus Christ, it's the fucking OTF, where the first response to thread about a woman is "PICS?!!!" and people think talking about flamboyant homosexuality is hilarious.

When the OTF was really at it's peak, we didn't have any of these silly rules. Granted, Lucky provided plenty of drama all by himself. Plenty of people are leaving however. I don't know if it's a priority or not for you guys to create a comfortable atmosphere for us board vets to hang around in, but things really are going downhill. Whether it's all the "ADMIN ABOOSE" or the general attitudes going down the shitter, the fact is these forums just aren't fun anymore.

I used to get at the very least a laugh out of one thread per day a few years back, and would often participate in the majority of the threads. Nowadays I rarely crack a smile and I post nowhere near as often as I used to. This place just isn't interesting anymore. I'm not putting 100% of the blame on the mods, but you guys aren't helping. The OTF is where you are supposed to go to act like an immature 13 year old, not a responsible adult.

[Steadman]

If I put on a clown suit and sneakers, would that satisfy you vecdran?

[Daywalker]

A clear case of admin aboose.

P.S. Rule #3 - Don't be a jerk to those around you.


Ahh yes, a rule that is enforced only 1% of the time, so we have no idea what constitutes being a jerk to those around you or not. Might as well just keep dice with me, and roll it each time I post to see if a rule I may be breaking a rule that will actually be enforced.

[killerfluffy]

The whole pruning was bullshit. It didn't violate any rules. It wasn't like Duff was a great guy and out of the blue people start raining shit on him. He's been an ass, has never been a popular member of the forums, and when he said he was reproducing people put up their thoughts on it.

It's not your role to 'clean up' a thread just because you personally have a problem with where it's going. The thread didn't violate any rules whatsoever. What you did was admin abuse and believe me, I'm one of the absolute last people to throw that term around.

[FaKToR]

Most of the other stuff I deleted was about whether or not Psyche was fat, explaining the history of judaism, and talking about picking up chicks in church.

Why would you take out useful information like that?

[Daywalker]

Why would you take out useful information like that?



She rolled a D6 die, and it ended up landing on 4 or greater which means shes suppose to start doing random acts of moderation on the thread.

[maggie]

He's been an ass, has never been a popular member of the forums

Does his popularity have anything to do with whether or not people should be allowed to attack him?

[Scraps]

Maggie is the downfall of the otf.

[maggie]

clrly.

[Scraps]

clrly.

rule XVII
i. Sarcastic responding to a forum member
ii. punishment is as follows
a. Give forum member cookies
b. Give forum member membership to happy cuddles
c. Allow forum member to make fun of the large chick on the forums
iii. If all criteria are not met admin must step down.

[killerfluffy]

Does his popularity have anything to do with whether or not people should be allowed to attack him?

There's a difference between attacking and stating your honest opinion. To be perfectly honest, the way Duff has acted in the past does leave him open to people saying the kinds of things I said about him. All of that aside, there was a ton of stuff in that thread that had nothing to do with his character that was also deleted. You also deleted people sticking up for him. It's crazy, its almost like a thread was developing and people were stating their opposing views, taking shots at each other and making jokes. But I guess that's completely unacceptable in the forums nowadays. You deleted 110+ posts from a 160 post thread. You can't possible claim that all 110 posts that were deleted were breaking some kind of rule.

Back to attacking him. Come on, you're telling me that my honest opinion of him was an attack? I truly 100% believe everything I said, and you might be amazed but most of the forum does too. It's not like I'm going out of my way to attack someone that has never done anything to warrant what I said. Believe me, over the years he's earned every goddamn word. Posting that he was having a kid was just opening himself up for what happened. It wasn't an attack, it was people being honest. That thread didn't break our forum rules.

[Prowl]

oh for the love of little baby jesus.

maggie has our full support, while the pruning may have been a little drastic nothing was lost of any real worth.

the fact of whether the mod is dead or not is moot, the forums will continue with our original aim of reducing the hostility and promoting the concept of peace, love and happiness.

usernames will be changed to serial numbers in the next few days, and signatures and avatars will be randomised.

all heil your new overlords!

[marty]

What are you actually doing to combat the hostility? All I see is people getting riled up

[killerfluffy]

oh for the love of little baby jesus.

maggie has our full support, while the pruning may have been a little drastic nothing was lost of any real worth.

Who is judging whether or not something has worth? A handful of moderators or the community? That's the problem here. I don't care if Maggie didn't like what was said in the post. I don't care if you didn't like it. It didn't break any rules, it wasn't spam, it was a dialogue. Granted it wasn't happycuddles, but it wasn't people flying off the handle cursing each other up and down the forums. As I've said before, no one has cited a rule that the thread broke or given a reason other than 'what was deleted wasn't of value'. There's a ton of stuff in the OTF that doesn't have value, see most posts by Rcow or threads that consist of nothing but pictures of cats or Xhair and I don't see those having 60% of their content removed from them.


the fact of whether the mod is dead or not is moot, the forums will continue with our original aim of reducing the hostility and promoting the concept of peace, love and happiness.

Actually, no its not moot. The changes that were implemented in the OTF were so that people wouldn't be scared away from the mod. Now there is no more mod, therefore the aforementioned changes are no longer necessary. The community is no longer going to be expanding as there is no longer anything to attract people to the site. Therefore, as this is a stagnation for the most part, maybe it might be a good idea not to keep acting in a manner that frustrates the people who're still here?


usernames will be changed to serial numbers in the next few days, and signatures and avatars will be randomised.

all heil your new overlords!
:rolleyes:

[Daywalker]

maybe its maggie thats the problem, she seems to always be involved when people yell aboose

[Prowl]

I have one solution for anyone that is upset by what happens here.

find a forum that tolerates the things that we don't and use their bandwith.

for the majority of people that post here problem free we will do our best to be good hosts to them.

[marty]

maybe its maggie thats the problem, she seems to always be involved when people yell aboose

I noticed that we all tended to become more disagreeable when she and prowl started to become more "active" and "visible". It's probably a bit more subtle than Lucky and Elektra, because nobody personally dislikes maggie or prowl

[killerfluffy]

I have one solution for anyone that is upset by what happens here.

find a forum that tolerates the things that we don't and use their bandwith.

for the majority of people that post here problem free we will do our best to be good hosts to them.

If the fact that you are in fact typing responses wouldn't contradict the following statement, I could swear that you hadn't read a single thing that I said. You moderate the forums and make sure that people don't break the rules. When people break the rules you take action.

Lets review this a third time and hope that it sinks in with you. As far as we've been told, and using our own reading of the rules, none of the rules were broken. Knowing quite a few of the mods and admins as I do I sincerly doubt that Maggie has the full support of the rest of the administration in her deleting and locking down of Duff's thread.

I just want to know what rules were broken and how that thread went against the rules so much so that 60% of it had to be excised and the rest of it locked from further posts.

[Prowl]

I noticed that we all tended to become more disagreeable when she and prowl started to become more "active" and "visible". It's probably a bit more subtle than Lucky and Elektra, because nobody personally dislikes maggie or prowl

I resent that comment, I'm sure plenty of forum-goers personally dislike me. If they weren't I wouldn't be doing my job right.

:fier:

[Scraps]

I noticed that we all tended to become more disagreeable when she and prowl started to become more "active" and "visible". It's probably a bit more subtle than Lucky and Elektra, because nobody personally dislikes maggie or prowl
Actually, I don't like maggie.i'm not kidding eitherso sue me

[StandingCow]

I noticed that we all tended to become more disagreeable when she and prowl started to become more "active" and "visible". It's probably a bit more subtle than Lucky and Elektra, because nobody personally dislikes maggie or prowl

WHAT?! I don't even get mentioned?! Blasphemy.. time to get more active again! LOL jk :D

[Yiggs]

Maybe Issa turned into Maggie, or was assimilated by her, that's why we don't see him anymore. :o


I'm with Scraps, this isn't FA:S

[StandingCow]

Maybe Issa turned into Maggie, or was assimilated by her, that's why we don't see him anymore. :o


I'm with Scraps, this isn't FA:S

Doesn't matter if it is FA:S or not, she happens to be a mod here as well. Again, whoever doesn't like how this place is run, take your posts elsewhere or make a thread suggesting changes.

[Steadman]

This forum just needs better brake fluid.

[Daywalker]

Doesn't matter if it is FA:S or not, she happens to be a mod here as well. Again, whoever doesn't like how this place is run, take your posts elsewhere or make a thread suggesting changes.

We are trying and you tell us to leave. Loyal game players that have always been around and you are telling us to leave, do you want the community to die?

[StandingCow]

We are trying and you tell us to leave. Loyal game players that have always been around and you are telling us to leave, do you want the community to die?

You need to go back and read what I said again. Just in case I wasn't clear enough, let me make myself more clear for you. If you do not like our rules, and are not having fun, you are welcome to go to a forum that suit your posting needs better than this one.

Now, the second part of what I said (I like how you totally ignored this) is that you could make a thread suggesting changes to the rules, and reasons why you think they should be changed.

Thanks.

[Yiggs]

"If you don't like it, leave" arguments are retarded. I see them everywhere :O

[StandingCow]

"If you don't like it, leave" arguments are retarded. I see them everywhere :O

They aren't retarded, they are true. Some of you just like to bitch about anything. If you don't like something why would you stick around?

Again, read my post above yours, I said leave or suggest changes in a new thread.

[Yiggs]

I stick around because this is where everyone else is. I'd gladly leave if another place got as much traffic as this place did. Take anything we've bitched about as a suggestion to change it.

[StandingCow]

I stick around because this is where everyone else is. I'd gladly leave if another place got as much traffic as this place did. Take anything we've bitched about as a suggestion to change it.

Bitching about things isn't going to change anything, we will just take it as a select few.. bitching.

Now a well thought out post or thread with reasons for each change might work.

[marty]

Don't go there

We've seen time and time again the only thing that actually works. We don't want to go down that road. BTW, If unanimously we want things to change, and we can't affect change, do you know what happens? This. We get grumpy and grouchy. Some want to push, some want to sit and wait. We all want to stay, but we don't want it to stay like this.

[FaKToR]

Bitching about things isn't going to change anything, we will just take it as a select few.. bitching.

Now a well thought out post or thread with reasons for each change might work.

This seems familiar...

http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showthread.php?t=44658

[killerfluffy]

The problem that we're encountering here isn't that we don't understand the rules. It's that our moderators don't understand the rules, as such its impossible for us to act in a manner that's consistently in line with the rules governing the forum. If the mods wanted to counter this notion than it would be reasonable to assume that they would be substantially more forward in addressing the queries directed towards them. However, the rank and file response from the mods has been either outright ignoring the questions and hand and making light of the situation, or insisting that we trust them to be more enlightened and partial simply because their name on the forum shows up in a color that differs from our own.

Having reread the thread linked by Faktor I can safely say that comments in Duffman's thread fell within the standards that were outlined by the administration of this forum. However, the comments were deleted because members of our moderation staff felt that they were "tosh" or "didn't contribute in meaningful way". This is problematic because now we're forced to pry our way inside Maggie and Prowl's minds and morals to properly determine how to make our posts. I cannot believe that some of the moderators on this forum are so condescending in how they speak to the regular forum members.

I find it personally offensive that any of you think you have a more nuetral or better balanced view of things than we do. We are your community, a lot of us are college students or professionals. We're not morons, we're not idiots, most of us are in fact extremely intelligent. Enforcer has 3.6+ GPA in the Boston College Medical Program, SWATJester is a student at one of the top law schools in the country, Discobird is about to be a Harvard graduate and the list goes on and on. It's reprehensible that you people act the way you do . When people ask for an explanation, it might behoove you to occasionally provide one. Lest you end up in a situation where most people think the moderators are idiots on power-trips.

[StandingCow]

Fine, ya know what, I told you guys what you should do, thats the only suggestion I can make.

Fuck it, I really just don't care anymore.

[siddy]

I have one solution for anyone that is upset by what happens here.

find a forum that tolerates the things that we don't and use their bandwith.

for the majority of people that post here problem free we will do our best to be good hosts to them.


but prowl my point is this. I AM one of the 'good guys' and I'm getting fed up with it.

[CaptCommy]

You know, it really would be nice to see the mods address the problems/issues being raised here, rather than try to just toss them away with a flip line or something. Fluffy has brought up many good points in a fairly respectable manner that you guys just keep ignoring. If you want us to, you know, do that whole Talk to the Mods thing, you actually have to have a dialogue back. Can't keep avoiding us and acting like you're better than us.

[Daywalker]

WE HAVE TRIED MAKING SUGGESTIONS! We are trying right now, and all you tell us to do is make more instead of addressing the concerns we've already brought up.

[vecdran]

Doesn't matter if it is FA:S or not, she happens to be a mod here as well. Again, whoever doesn't like how this place is run, take your posts elsewhere or make a thread suggesting changes.

With the attitudes of mods getting pompous and self righteous, maybe I will. You are pissing off more and more veterans. You are taking the stance of the saying you are neutral and fair, yet at the same time ignoring your own rules. You guys want to run this place like a dictatorship, be my guest, but be prepared to see less and less people post. Personally, this will be one of the first times the administrators drove me away from a forum, not the users.

[Prowl]

I would love to know what forums allow what we do.

I don't want to see the veterans leave here, but if it's a toss up between allowing all the flaming, drug threads and abuse, or losing a handful of long time members, then I'm gonna have to say "so long!"

[Steadman]

You didn't say drug threads in a deep enough voice

it's supposed to be flaming, abuse, and those gawdam drug threads

[StandingCow]

With the attitudes of mods getting pompous and self righteous, maybe I will. You are pissing off more and more veterans. You are taking the stance of the saying you are neutral and fair, yet at the same time ignoring your own rules. You guys want to run this place like a dictatorship, be my guest, but be prepared to see less and less people post. Personally, this will be one of the first times the administrators drove me away from a forum, not the users.

You are the ones breaking the rules, not us. I am not talking about the posts that break the rules here, I am talking about those that do. Anyway, like I said, you choose to leave or stay, we don't.

You have a problem with the rules, you tell the admins, you talk to mods there isn't much we can do except tell you the rules.

[Modest Genius]

I'm going to deal with these in reverse order:
You are the ones breaking the rules, not us. I am not talking about the posts that break the rules here, I am talking about those that do. Anyway, like I said, you choose to leave or stay, we don't.wrong. If you hadn't noticed (which kinda suggests you didn't bother to read) this thread is a complaint that a thread was censored despite the fact that no rules were broken and the mods have been unable to point to one which was.

You have a problem with the rules, you tell the admins, you talk to mods there isn't much we can do except tell you the rules.
Now a well thought out post or thread with reasons for each change might work.As Faktor and Marty have pointed out, such threads have been tried before. Several times in fact. Nothing ever came of them, not even a 'thanks for your input but we had a big discussion about this and decided not to change it'. They've never even worked between mods, let alone suggestions by the rank and file. If our efforts are ignored, then you shouldn't be surprised to find we are reluctant to waste our time rehashing them. And, of course, in this case we aren't asking for a rules change, we're asking for an end to censorship of things which aren't against the current rules.

I don't want to see the veterans leave here, but if it's a toss up between allowing all the flaming, drug threads and abuse, or losing a handful of long time members, then I'm gonna have to say "so long!"If you hadn't noticed, people don't post as much as they used to. Just because people haven't actually left doesn't mean they're satisfied, nor that things couldn't be improved. Right now, what's the point in these forums? Surely the only point is so people can have a bit of fun, and maybe wait for WaW to be re-started (yeah right). It's not like we're going to be attracting many new people, so we may as well make our current ones happy.

I'm as much against spam, personal attacks and illegal shit as most of the mods. However, when you start censoring material which was not just permissible, but also some of the most entertaining we've had in ages, I think we've gone too far. A moderator's job is to clean up and prevent the place degenerating into porn, spam and vitriol; this is done by enforcing the published rules. It is not the mods job to make up rules on the spot, censor arbitrarily nor to attempt to push the forums towards some 'desired' state.

Now, are you going to make a reasonable response, or are we all going to be told to put up or shut up again?

EDIT: a quick thought - I'd like to hear Scav's take on this one

[marty]

Hear us out for God's sake, we're not shit-disturbers. Those guys already left years ago

[StandingCow]

wrong. If you hadn't noticed (which kinda suggests you didn't bother to read) this thread is a complaint that a thread was censored despite the fact that no rules were broken and the mods have been unable to point to one which was.


I mistyped my sentence. I was referring to people that do break the rules. My bad.

I ment to type "I am not talking about the posts that do not break the rules here"


As Faktor and Marty have pointed out, such threads have been tried before. Several times in fact. Nothing ever came of them, not even a 'thanks for your input but we had a big discussion about this and decided not to change it'. They've never even worked between mods, let alone suggestions by the rank and file. If our efforts are ignored, then you shouldn't be surprised to find we are reluctant to waste our time rehashing them. And, of course, in this case we aren't asking for a rules change, we're asking for an end to censorship of things which aren't against the current rules.

I never said that just because you posted a change request that it would be changed, its just worth a shot. Suggestions are not ignored, they are discussed in the mod section.

As far as deleting things that are not against the rules I point you to: "3. Don't be a jerk to those around you." and "a. Rules interpretations by the forum staff take precedence, and the interpretations of the administrators are gospel. " So, in this specific case, what he said could be interpreted as against the rules.

[maggie]

As far as deleting things that are not against the rules I point you to: "3. Don't be a jerk to those around you." and "a. Rules interpretations by the forum staff take precedence, and the interpretations of the administrators are gospel. " So, in this specific case, what he said could be interpreted as against the rules.

Yeah, I pointed that out, but it was ignored :)

[killerfluffy]

All 110 deleted posts where against the rules? Seems a little steep to me, and as far as being ignored, rule #3 was edited into that post after it was replied to.

[Noirceur]

Most of them were true/funny/deserved.

[CaptCommy]

I don't understand what the bit about picking up women in church was bad. That was just good OTF humor and advice. Didn't see much harm in it mehself.

[StandingCow]

Most of them were true/funny/deserved.

Being true/funny/deserved does not make something ok. We have discussed this many times.

And before anyone says no rules were broken, you need to read above. Since some of you are splitting hairs I felt the need to do the same. Again: "3. Don't be a jerk to those around you." and "a. Rules interpretations by the forum staff take precedence, and the interpretations of the administrators are gospel. "

[Scraps]

This place is just getting insanely stupid.

[killerfluffy]

So again, you guys are actually saying that all 110 posts that were deleted fell under the premise of rule #3? Thats a load. If thats truly what the mod who deleted those posts felt, maybe that mod shouldn't be allowed to moderate within the OTF, seeing as they're incapable of understanding the dominant sense of humor within that subsection.

If you're saying that my post was me being a jerk, meh, you could probably make a sound argument for that, even though it was completely true and deserved. However, Rabbit's post about picking women up in church wasn't offensive, nor was Battlewhack's standing up for Duffman. It was a lot of un-necessary deletions. All I'd really like is the mod who did it to apologize for deleting a ton of posts that didn't break any rules. You could argue that a few did, but you can't argue that the other 100 deleted posts did.

Just apologize, admit a mistake was made.

[marty]

Look, guys, a lot of us were here before you, much less before you became mods and admins, so it's pretty irksome to hear "maybe you should just go away".

[killerfluffy]

Being so condescending to the people who stuck with the original development team, backed them up when the project was stolen and then continued to support their work on a new mod is probably not the best of ideas. But then again, what the fuck do we know. We're just the people who come to your sites regularly and would consider using your product in the future, or consider spreading good press about you.

Yeah, you guys have the right idea. Tell the people who've stuck with a team for yeares to fuck off, because you can't take a joke.

Bra-fucking-vo.

[Modest Genius]

"3. Don't be a jerk to those around you." and "a. Rules interpretations by the forum staff take precedence, and the interpretations of the administrators are gospel. " So, in this specific case, what he said could be interpreted as against the rules.I fail to see how sensible discussion of the relative merits of teenage fatherhood, picking up girls in churches and fatherhood whilst in the military qualifies as 'being a jerk', whatever that means. maybe an argument could be made for one or two of the posts, but the vast majority were not even close to being borderline, let alone actually offensive.

all of those posts were harder to interpret as being against the rules than this (http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showpost.php?p=600693&postcount=74)

also, I like how you ignored the last part of my post

[StandingCow]

I fail to see how sensible discussion of the relative merits of teenage fatherhood, picking up girls in churches and fatherhood whilst in the military qualifies as 'being a jerk', whatever that means. maybe an argument could be made for one or two of the posts, but the vast majority were not even close to being borderline, let alone actually offensive.

all of those posts were harder to interpret as being against the rules than this (http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showpost.php?p=600693&postcount=74)

also, I like how you ignored the last part of my post

Its for us to interpret not you. No rules were made up.

Steadman, you keep making comments that offer nothing but flames to the argument the thread will be closed.

Look, guys, a lot of us were here before you, much less before you became mods and admins, so it's pretty irksome to hear "maybe you should just go away".

Moot point, the mods and admins were put in power for a reason, when they arrived has nothing to do with it.

Being so condescending to the people who stuck with the original development team, backed them up when the project was stolen and then continued to support their work on a new mod is probably not the best of ideas. But then again, what the fuck do we know. We're just the people who come to your sites regularly and would consider using your product in the future, or consider spreading good press about you.

Yeah, you guys have the right idea. Tell the people who've stuck with a team for yeares to fuck off, because you can't take a joke.

Bra-fucking-vo.

And we appreciate that, but supporting us in no way gives you a pass to do as you like.

[Prowl]

Look, guys, a lot of us were here before you, much less before you became mods and admins, so it's pretty irksome to hear "maybe you should just go away".

User: Prowl (id: 3)

User: marty (id: 6)

I win!

Marty, I don't even remember seeing you making many (if any) rule breaking posts in recent memory, yet you are incredibly vocal about this censorship and admin abuse.

It has sadly got to the stage where there is a large handful of very vocal people who it seems have launched a crusade about their rights in respect of a private game forum. They want to constantly bitch and second guess every decision made, and pass judgement on how we run the place. The dialogue between the staff and the community has ceased, and it's pretty much a monologue of bitching.

I and many of the mods (most likely all) do not enjoy the situation, however we do not consider giving the OTF free rein an option either.

I can stand back and admit that 110 posts can be considered excessive pruning, though I've been there before and cleaning a thread without deleting it can easily result in overkill. You end up deleting legitimate responses to deleted posts. This is normally done to keep the flow of the thread and to eliminate the offensive stuff remaining in quotes. Putting it all back is a lot of work too, and considering it's not actually important, nobody makes a fuss and you end up leaving it as it is.

If we didn't have this section where we give you the chance to complain then we wouldn't be having this lovely long winded argument. This is the downside to opening discussions with the membership I guess.

I would not dream of apologising for Maggie, I can apologise for my actions, and since I'm part of the administration I can apologise on behalf of them. In this instance I admit that the efforts made to clean up that thread could be seen as overzealous. I apologise if the loss of certain posts has caused anger/upset to people. I also apologise if our responses here have made the situation worse, it is never our intention to do so.

The posts are not likely to be undeleted, however we will try to ensure that deletions are more fully thought through in future.

[Modest Genius]

Marty, I don't even remember seeing you making many (if any) rule breaking posts in recent memory, yet you are incredibly vocal about this censorship and admin abuse.And how many have I made? People don't just speak out due to self-interest, I know I have done so out of principle and a belief that the place can be improved. I'm sure marty is the same.
It has sadly got to the stage where there is a large handful of very vocal people who it seems have launched a crusade about their rights in respect of a private game forum. They want to constantly bitch and second guess every decision made, and pass judgement on how we run the place. The dialogue between the staff and the community has ceased, and it's pretty much a monologue of bitching.Well, like Faktors thread, we have made some attempts at reasoned dialogue. Unfortunately, it has become a monologue because we haven't been getting much of a response.

I and many of the mods (most likely all) do not enjoy the situation, however we do not consider giving the OTF free rein an option either.So how about we just repeal the stupid new rules that have been introduced recently (eg the proscription on swearing in thread titles), and go back to the style we had a year or so ago?

If we didn't have this section where we give you the chance to complain then we wouldn't be having this lovely long winded argument. This is the downside to opening discussions with the membership I guess.yeah, that's the downside to giving people a say - sooner of later they start saying things you don't agree with. Damn freedom of speech eh? (no I'm not going to start that argument)

I would not dream of apologising for Maggie, I can apologise for my actions, and since I'm part of the administration I can apologise on behalf of them. In this instance I admit that the efforts made to clean up that thread could be seen as overzealous. I apologise if the loss of certain posts has caused anger/upset to people. I also apologise if our responses here have made the situation worse, it is never our intention to do so.

The posts are not likely to be undeleted, however we will try to ensure that deletions are more fully thought through in future.Thank you.

[Steadman]

My highly on topic post was deleted, I demand castration of my superiors.

[Scraps]

/me think the Standing Cow record is broken.
edit: actually all of the records are broken since they keep replaying the same thing.
edit 2: Why dont you guys get rid of the other mods and just keep it as Cow/Prowl/Maggie?

[maggie]

Yeah, my pruning was over-the top. I deleted a few posts that were rule-breakers, then had to delete the replies to those, then the replies to the replies, and then I almost just deleted the whole fucking thread, but I figured you guys would bitch, so I pruned the everloving shit out of it. I'm sorry if some of your precious posts were lost that shouldn't have been. Frankly, it's a shitty, thankless job, and sometimes one gets a bit frustrated and goes a little berserk.

Anyway, I expect you'll all be rather pleased that I've submitted my resignation from this post.

[Steadman]

Yeah, my pruning was over-the top. I deleted a few posts that were rule-breakers, then had to delete the replies to those, then the replies to the replies, and then I almost just deleted the whole fucking thread, but I figured you guys would bitch, so I pruned the everloving shit out of it. I'm sorry if some of your precious posts were lost that shouldn't have been. Frankly, it's a shitty, thankless job, and sometimes one gets a bit frustrated and goes a little berserk.

Anyway, I expect you'll all be rather pleased that I've submitted my resignation from this post.
Why? You do the work that needs doing, Prowl makes himself look like an ass and Cow becomes the scapegoat for all the blame.
It's a perfect system.

[StandingCow]

Why? You do the work that needs doing, Prowl makes himself look like an ass and Cow becomes the scapegoat for all the blame.
It's a perfect system.

Prowl didn't make himself look like an ass at all.

[Glock23]

maggie, you don't get to leave

i like you as a mod, you're smart and funny and pretty and you want to get dinner some time when that other panda guy isn't around?

[Daywalker]

I have to echo what others have said, its a monologue because we are talking to the wall on this one. My suggestion thread was locked with one post saying "This is already the way it is." What world are you living in Prowl?! This thread was created because of exactly what my suggestion was concerning. You guys don't listen to us at all.

[StandingCow]

I have to echo what others have said, its a monologue because we are talking to the wall on this one. My suggestion thread was locked with one post saying "This is already the way it is." What world are you living in Prowl?! This thread was created because of exactly what my suggestion was concerning. You guys don't listen to us at all.

.... we don't listen to you at all? Or we don't agree with you?

If we didn't listen there would not be this section in the forums and we certainly wouldn't be replying.

[Daywalker]

I think you guys are letting us talk and looking at it, but your not actually listening and taking it into consideration. if you do, it is far from showing

[StandingCow]

I think you guys are letting us talk and looking at it, but your not actually listening and taking it into consideration. if you do, it is far from showing

Well, I can assure you it is being taken into consideration. There is always talk in the mod section about issues... don't assume. :)

[Chris R]

Well, I can assure you it is being taken into consideration. There is always talk in the mod section about issues... don't assume. :)

Well, I'll admit that it doesn't show. At all. There's no need for you guys to inform us on every decision you make, but if you truly are taking things into consideration then let us know before people get all riled up. Presentation plays a huge role too in how your actions are viewed. And I'll say that just from reading this forum every now and then and seeing things in the OTF, you guys do give an impression of not caring or an absence of willingness to change current forum policies.

[StandingCow]

Well, I'll admit that it doesn't show. At all. There's no need for you guys to inform us on every decision you make, but if you truly are taking things into consideration then let us know before people get all riled up. Presentation plays a huge role too in how your actions are viewed. And I'll say that just from reading this forum every now and then and seeing things in the OTF, you guys do give an impression of not caring or an absence of willingness to change current forum policies.

We will let you guys know when a decision is made. We can't control your assumptions. We will never be totally unwilling to change forum policies. Everything changes. ;)

[marty]

Prowl didn't make himself look like an ass at all.

not as in, "embarassed himself", but as in "jerk"

And no, he didn't look like a jerk, but some of his posts have a "jerk" undertone :( which I used to like and thought it was endearing and funny, but it's not so cool anymore because he's in a position of power over us.

[Chris R]

We will let you guys know when a decision is made. We can't control your assumptions. We will never be totally unwilling to change forum policies. Everything changes. ;)

Well, I'm thinking that everytime we suggest a rule change through a thread such as this you take it into consideration and then a decision is made?

[StandingCow]

Well, I'm thinking that everytime we suggest a rule change through a thread such as this you take it into consideration and then a decision is made?

Not everytime. But we can see when there is a problem, don't forget we have been around for quite a while. We know what the community things of things.

[Prowl]

Well, I'll admit that it doesn't show. At all. There's no need for you guys to inform us on every decision you make, but if you truly are taking things into consideration then let us know before people get all riled up. Presentation plays a huge role too in how your actions are viewed. And I'll say that just from reading this forum every now and then and seeing things in the OTF, you guys do give an impression of not caring or an absence of willingness to change current forum policies.

See the thing is we really do look at this sub forum, we discuss anything that is either deserving of merit, or looks like it'll become a larger issue.

However just because a lot of people complain about something, doesn't mean we are gonna change it.

In particular I've noticed someone bringing up the no swearing in thread titles rule again. I still see absolutely fuck all reason to change it. We haven't banned for swearing within the main body of threads, which is very lenient compared to all the other forums I'm a member of. Asking that there is no swearing in thread titles is not something that causes problems, nor does it offend anyone.

[Chris R]

Not everytime. But we can see when there is a problem, don't forget we have been around for quite a while. We know what the community things of things.

Well, right now I'd say theres a problem. I mean, its gone from a couple angry people bitching about once in awhile to more frequent cases of people being angry. And while I'm not gonna say that veterans or anyone else should get special treatment, everyone who is here now are really the only people left. Since the news came out about WaW taking a hiatus I haven't seen a single new soul. I'd imagine its gotten to the point where one of you guys realize that if this many people are ticked about some of the rules and the responses members get when they make statements about the rules, theres a problem.


See the thing is we really do look at this sub forum, we discuss anything that is either deserving of merit, or looks like it'll become a larger issue.

However just because a lot of people complain about something, doesn't mean we are gonna change it.

Yes, but opening up a sub forum implies that you will read and listen to it (which you have stated that you did), however it also implies that changes will be made if a lot of people are unhappy over a policy. If you don't budge on anything (and from what I've seen, y'all haven't so far) or show any feedback other than "No" then people will get angry.

In particular I've noticed someone bringing up the no swearing in thread titles rule again. I still see absolutely fuck all reason to change it. We haven't banned for swearing within the main body of threads, which is very lenient compared to all the other forums I'm a member of. Asking that there is no swearing in thread titles is not something that causes problems, nor does it offend anyone.

I can't speak for anyone else, this rule didn't bother me a whole lot, but what I think it did for most people was hurt the 'spirit' of the OTF, but also bring up the fact that people are worried about a slipery slope kind of deal, where once a rule like that is made then it'll be much easier to make similiar, harsher rules or take harsher attitudes down the road. People are still pretty weary from the Lucky days when he'd get pissed and ban people all whilst being a complete ass to everyone else.

[StandingCow]

Yes, but opening up a sub forum implies that you will read and listen to it (which you have stated that you did), however it also implies that changes will be made if a lot of people are unhappy over a policy. If you don't budge on anything (and from what I've seen, y'all haven't so far) or show any feedback other than "No" then people will get angry.

People are still pretty weary from the Lucky days when he'd get pissed and ban people all whilst being a complete ass to everyone else.

People can get as angry as they want, there are some rules they are just going to have to follow, again, Im not saying leave, but if you find that you just cannot cope with the rules... well maybe there is a forum you would enjoy more. And I don't mean YOU, I mean anybody.

Lucky was removed from power for a reason. This being one of them.

[marty]

Just note though: I still trust you guys, and talk to you often enough to assume good faith on your part. I just disagree a lot on what's going on.

[StandingCow]

Just note though: I still trust you guys, and talk to you often enough to assume good faith on your part. I just disagree a lot on what's going on.

If everyone agreed this world would be pretty boring. :)

[Yiggs]

If everyone agreed this world would be pretty boring. :)

Not really. A lot fo stuff that's fun doesn't include arguing.

[Scraps]

You ready to resign yet Cow?

[StandingCow]

You ready to resign yet Cow?

Im gonna resign your face.

[Maddog]

Anakin Skywalker: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.
Obi-Wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil.
Anakin Skywalker: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
Obi-Wan: Well, then you are lost.

[marty]

Oh great. Just great

Here comes Maddog again renaming his cities to something non-racist.

[Walnut]

Well, I can assure you it is being taken into consideration. There is always talk in the mod section about issues... don't assume. :)

Then why not make the mod section visible to everyone? There's nothing of importance with regards to this forum. There's no super-secret information that we can't know.

[killerfluffy]

Because there's stuff discussed there that we do not need to be party to. In all honesty, I thank the mods for answering my initial question and would suggest locking this thread before it devolves into the bitchfest I can see looming on the horizon.

[Wallrod]

Then why not make the mod section visible to everyone? There's nothing of importance with regards to this forum. There's no super-secret information that we can't know.Because there IS super-secret information that you're not yet privy to. Things like plans for forum moves, what's going on from the team and how that affects them, ideas for games and pranks, stuff like that which would be better not released until they're fully formed ideas. At which point we'd have a public and private mod forum, except no mods would post anything in the public one that they didn't intend to tell everyone anyway, making that post obselete, or would retreat to IRC.

[Modest Genius]

Then why not make the mod section visible to everyone? There's nothing of importance with regards to this forum. There's no super-secret information that we can't know.that is a pretty stupid idea

also, is wallrod no longer a mod?

[StandingCow]

that is a pretty stupid idea

also, is wallrod no longer a mod?

Wallrod decided that he didn't want to moderate anymore. And is welcome back anytime. :D

And fluffy is right, this thread as served its purpose.