That really controversial .50cal video.

[Frost]

Some say its from overseas, and they're shooting people, I think they're shooting animals in like Idaho or something, but you guys would know better than me.

http://www.wildboston.com/assets/movies/phP5vFmXHce7.wmv

Opinions?

[Captain Colon]

Where the fuck is that controversial?


That was cool btw

[CT]

Ha, lies. Those are jackrabbits and coyotes. I actually have the video that they stole the footage from. Varmit Hunts 2. Also, it is against the Houge Convention (commonly mistaken as part of the Geneva Convention, and though the US didnt sign it, we do adhere to it for the most part) to use large caliber and enhanced damage (read: .50 or hollowpoint) munitions against enemy combatants. I have seen what .50 cal injuries look like (admittedley, they were behind barriers) and while the damage is truley shocking, they dont go flying. Remember the third of Sir Issac Newton's laws of physics. Briefly, "Every Action has an Equal and Opposite Reaction." If the target goes flying like that, that means that the same amount of energy pushed back on the weapon firing the round. Even the best .50cal muzzle brakes couldnt stop enough force to send a 150 lb target flying like that :) Anyway, according to the real, unedited, video, they were using .308 Remington 700 rifles.

[SWATJester_os]

I've seen .50 BMG wounds from 20 feet away, with no barriers. :D

I have pics too.

And it's Hague conventions.

[Captain Colon]

Hague Accord ;)

What rounds were they using to make coyotes asplode like that? :eek:

[Shadow]

either .50BMG M33 Ball or .50BMG M903 Sabot Light Armor Piercing (SLAP). It doesn't take much, because being such small and light targets, the stopping power and projectile energy would be so great that such terminal ballistics would occur. Kind of nasty, but at least the animals went to heaven pretty damned quick without even feeling a thing :)

[Agent Law]

I've seen .50 BMG wounds from 20 feet away, with no barriers. :D

I have pics too.

And it's Hague conventions.
...Is that guy missing the top of his head? :eek:

[Shadow]

So it would seem. I got a real gorey one, but it would get me banned LOL

[CT]

Either way, the contents of the videos are just some jackrabbits and yotes taking hits from .308s :)

[Shadow]

That was my first thought. I didn't think that they would use .50BMGs on such small targets. I was going to say 7.62mm upwards to .338 WM/LM.

[SWATJester_os]

...Is that guy missing the top of his head? :eek:

Yes he is. Incidentally, that guy was the first of 2 people to be killed with that one round. That round went in this guys head, out his face, and into the next guys neck, dead center. Opened it up like a zipper.

The next round hit one of them in the chest or leg or something, I can't remember.


Only 2 rounds were fired though, the .50 was misfed, and required cocking after every shot.

[Agent Law]

Wow. That must take an iron stomach to see in real life.

[CT]

Its not really the gore at first, but boy does that smell stick with you. Riding along a few days later you catch a whiff of it, brings back alot of memories. Nice shooting with the Ma Deuce if you nailed the occupants with 2 shots, its an accurate weapon, but some of the worst sights i have ever used. I usually see 100mph tape holding on an ML2 :P

[Kamikazi_Watermelon]

So it would seem. I got a real gorey one, but it would get me banned LOL
i say post ;) lol or pm me the pic link :D

[SWATJester_os]

Its not really the gore at first, but boy does that smell stick with you. Riding along a few days later you catch a whiff of it, brings back alot of memories. Nice shooting with the Ma Deuce if you nailed the occupants with 2 shots, its an accurate weapon, but some of the worst sights i have ever used. I usually see 100mph tape holding on an ML2 :P

Wasn't me doing the shooting.

And the range was so close that it didn't matter the sighting post was bent.

BTW human death != animal death.

[Frost]

The controversy was that the video was released under the pretense that it was a .50 shooting people, but since weapons saves the day, my mind is at ease.

[GoatChomper]

Also, it is against the Houge Convention (commonly mistaken as part of the Geneva Convention, and though the US didnt sign it, we do adhere to it for the most part).....
Incorrect. The United States party was indeed a signatory to the first Hague Convention at President McKinley's direction.....the sticking point was Congress' refusal to ratify it.
.....to use large caliber and enhanced damage (read: .50 or hollowpoint) munitions against enemy combatants.
This is a bit of lore that just won't die, it seems.

There is nothing in the Convention or any of the Accords which bans any class of weapon from anti-personnel use, much less by designation or caliber. The wording of the agreements outlaw "excessively cruel or wounding" weapons.

[Frost]

See, that's the thing, how is any .50 cal weapon "excessively cruel or wounding"? They kill in 1 shot regardless of where you hit someone, I would think 5.56mm x 45mm would fall under this rule instead because the rounds fragment correct?

[CT]

Wasn't me doing the shooting.

And the range was so close that it didn't matter the sighting post was bent.

BTW human death != animal death.

Totally agree with you on that, though I wasnt referring to animals. Heh, not in the physical sense anyway. Caught the tail end of some nasties in modern Korea about 9 years back doing a stint with Navy, we still have people posted there after all these years. Only takes about 3 or 4 hours for the smell to start up. Last time I caught a whiff of that was working for the Honolulu PD investigating some car accidents. They dont clean the cars right away, and 80-90 degree heat seems just about right :(

Frost: Military lawyers basically bicker about most small arms before considering them for deployment, they seem to have made it pretty clear, dont use the evil 50s on combatants standing out in the open. You may have seen some fallout from them in a particularly famous apache video. You dont shoot combatants you cant verify pose an immediate threat. They shoot the vehicles which just so happen to be neatly parked nearby. You would be suprised how much those stupid bastards (lawyers) get involved in battlefield decisions. :p Well, try to at least. You tell that kid on the ground, sitting alone on a HMMWV that he isnt supposed to use that M2 on those people charging at him.

[IchWarriorMkII]

Its fucking woodchucks/whistle pigs.

[Shadow]

Mods - this is upon request:

http://home.comcast.net/~boogie1077/headshot.jpg

Iraqi Insurgent, Taken out with an M107. in Fallujah.

Do NOT post that crap again like that.

--Lucky

[Wallrod]

Linking that image with a text warning may be a better idea, for future gory-picture reference.

[[Political] Slayer]

I've seen .50 BMG wounds from 20 feet away, with no barriers. :D

I have pics too.

And it's Hague conventions.



Where is that pic you took of the guy who's brains you blew out with the M2?

So it would seem. I got a real gorey one, but it would get me banned LOL

Weren't you just bitching at us on the FA forums for thinking that the deaths of some of the Iraqis in Over there was funny?

[SWATJester_os]

Totally agree with you on that, though I wasnt referring to animals. Heh, not in the physical sense anyway. Caught the tail end of some nasties in modern Korea about 9 years back doing a stint with Navy, we still have people posted there after all these years. Only takes about 3 or 4 hours for the smell to start up. Last time I caught a whiff of that was working for the Honolulu PD investigating some car accidents. They dont clean the cars right away, and 80-90 degree heat seems just about right :(

Frost: Military lawyers basically bicker about most small arms before considering them for deployment, they seem to have made it pretty clear, dont use the evil 50s on combatants standing out in the open. You may have seen some fallout from them in a particularly famous apache video. You dont shoot combatants you cant verify pose an immediate threat. They shoot the vehicles which just so happen to be neatly parked nearby. You would be suprised how much those stupid bastards (lawyers) get involved in battlefield decisions. :p Well, try to at least. You tell that kid on the ground, sitting alone on a HMMWV that he isnt supposed to use that M2 on those people charging at him.

Don't blame the lawyers for doing their jobs. They're defending the government from the frivolous lawsuits that will inevitably be raised.


See, that's the thing, how is any .50 cal weapon "excessively cruel or wounding"? They kill in 1 shot regardless of where you hit someone, I would think 5.56mm x 45mm would fall under this rule instead because the rounds fragment correct?

Not necessarily, most famously Col. Beckwith was shot in the kidney by a russian .51 caliber round and was able to continue boarding his extraction helo. A .50 wound is by far not fatal....remember many civil war era muskets and rifles were .50 or .68 or even larger calibers.

[Frost]

Not necessarily, most famously Col. Beckwith was shot in the kidney by a russian .51 caliber round and was able to continue boarding his extraction helo. A .50 wound is by far not fatal....remember many civil war era muskets and rifles were .50 or .68 or even larger calibers.
True but they weren't packing a pound or two of highly concentrated gun powder that was sending the musket rounds 1 mile with pin-point accuracy :P. And yeah, I've heard of that story before, but it's a *general* rule of thumb that if you get hit by a 12.7mm x 99mm round, you probably aren't going to be around long enough to realize it.

[Shadow]

Slayer,

You're completely misinterpreting what i posted. I simply replied to someone's post who said "it was funny to watch people die/get killed". I said "There is nothing funny about people killing one another.

Don't worry, when you're all grown up, you'll understand.

[GoatChomper]

See, that's the thing, how is any .50 cal weapon "excessively cruel or wounding"? They kill in 1 shot regardless of where you hit someone.....
What? Better rethink that. If you take a .50 BMG round in the foot, you'll probably lose the foot.....but you're very unlikely to die from it.
I would think 5.56mm x 45mm would fall under this rule instead because the rounds fragment correct?
No.....not only because they don't always fragment (small-arms engineers work long hours trying to prevent exactly that), but also because any such fragmentation is not an intended function.
Frost: Military lawyers basically bicker about most small arms before considering them for deployment, they seem to have made it pretty clear, dont use the evil 50s on combatants standing out in the open.
Huh? .50 BMG in an indirect fire mode? This claim is part of neither US nor international law on warfare. Think about it.....much more powerful weapons like artillery are fair game, so what makes you think a .50 BMG is traif? If anything, the lawyers are arguing the fine points of rules of engagement.
You dont shoot combatants you cant verify pose an immediate threat.
Wrong as wrong can be. That applies to US civil law regarding the use of force outside of military operations, not war between international parties.

It's very simple.....hostile parties who still retain operational capability and who are not clearly attempting surrender are fair game for any and all attacks.
They shoot the vehicles which just so happen to be neatly parked nearby.
A variation of the old "can't shoot AA at descending paratroopers, have to shoot at their equipment" line and just as false today as it was then.
True but they weren't packing a pound or two of highly concentrated gun powder that was sending the musket rounds 1 mile with pin-point accuracy.
Nor are any modern small-arms or .50 BMG rounds, but that's moot.

Got any idea why amputation was the usual treatment for limb wounds in the American Civil War? It wasn't just because the level of medical science was where it was.....it was largely because a .54 Minie round left damned near nothing to fix when it hit bone.