European Football (Soccer)

[Polish Hill]

The year has begun so hopefully we can get a bit of discussion going about the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, and Bundesliga. I pray to gawd I'm not jinxing it but coughcomeonyouspurscough

[DumbGrunt]

Scottish Premier League for the win!

My team, Dundee United, has made a pretty good start (2 wins, 1 draw). Unfortunately if we keep that up...

1 The Old Firm / English teams will start sniffing around our best players (see Lucaz Zaluska, Barry Robson, Mark Wilson, Willo Flood, Duncan Ferguson et al)

2 The national team, if unsucessful in qualifying for the World Cup (which looks pretty likely :() will probably be looking for a new manager. I can't see us holding on to Craig Levein if the SFA come a knocking (double :()

[Modest Genius]

spurs DO look pretty good at the moment; in fact there does seem to be more competition for the 'big four' than for a good few years. hopefully that won't peter out whenever they hit a run of bad form

dumbgrunt, how can anyone take scottish football seriously when rangers or celtic have won every year since 1985 (and 40 out of the last 44 seasons)?

[RoommateRiot]

Great comic re: Spurs. http://www.studs-up.com/2009/08/a-necessary-intervention/

Arsenal is getting ruined by the press, but they've had a strong start. :)

[DumbGrunt]

dumbgrunt, how can anyone take scottish football seriously when rangers or celtic have won every year since 1985 (and 40 out of the last 44 seasons)?

I wouldn't expect you to understand, but when they don't win it, it is all the sweeter (see 82/83 season :)). How many different teams have won the Premiership in the past decade anyway?

Also, when was the last time an English team beat Barcelona home and away in a two legged european tie???

gXb7VG9o-u0

5MPGq9hJG2U

[Polish Hill]

How many different teams have won the Premiership in the past decade anyway?

A whopping...three

1992–93 Manchester United
1993–94 Manchester United
1994–95 Blackburn Rovers
1995–96 Manchester United
1996–97 Manchester United
1997–98 Arsenal
1998–99 Manchester United
1999–00 Manchester United
2000–01 Manchester United
2001–02 Arsenal
2002–03 Manchester United
2003–04 Arsenal
2004–05 Chelsea
2005–06 Chelsea
2006–07 Manchester United
2007–08 Manchester United
2008–09 Manchester United

Would not have expected to find that Rovers won it last before Liverpool did. But one of the things the big American sports leagues certainly have over all the large European leagues is parity. As great as the soccer is I don't think I'd enjoy being a fan of the league punchline. But hmm wait...I guess that's what it must be like to be a Browns or Bengals fan.

[Modest Genius]

A whopping...three
three indeed. but to compare like-with-like we should look over the same time periods.

since 1983:
scotland two
england seven

since 1965:
scotland four
england eleven


I'll agree the US system maintains better parity, and that in general this is a good thing. But IMO it's gone too far, and actually generates a system whereby it is good for a team to be AWFUL for a few years in order to have a chance of winning afterwards (eg pittsburgh penguins). The system that runs this (drafts, trades and closed leagues ie no promotion/relegation) is so utterly different to that in the rest of the world that it is almost impossible to see how any part of it could be adopted to gain some of its benefits, without wholesale substitution.

[RoommateRiot]

I am very mixed on the fact that there is no promotion or relegation in MLS.

[Moe_Rahn]

I'll agree the US system maintains better parity, and that in general this is a good thing. But IMO it's gone too far, and actually generates a system whereby it is good for a team to be AWFUL for a few years in order to have a chance of winning afterwards (eg pittsburgh penguins). The system that runs this (drafts, trades and closed leagues ie no promotion/relegation) is so utterly different to that in the rest of the world that it is almost impossible to see how any part of it could be adopted to gain some of its benefits, without wholesale substitution.
there's also teams that are awful for a few years, and then remain awful despite this (pittsburgh pirates, kansas city royals, washington nationals), although that's typically more due to poor management than anything else

[Polish Hill]

And there are teams that thrive regardless of a salary cap (Pittsburgh Steelers, New England Patriots, Detroit Red Wings). Regardless there is no simple solution for a sport where the international leagues are so intertwined. It just sucks that as a fan of most of the clubs you have to pray for an oil tycoon or foreign billionaire to swoop in and hopefully buy you a fighting chance.

[RoommateRiot]

What do you guys think of the Eduardo decision? I'm going to stay out of it, because I support Arsenal, so I'm biased.

[DumbGrunt]

I think it's beyond doubt he dived so I'm guessing you are coming at this issue from the "should retrospective punishment via video evidence be a factor in sport?" angle. I don't see why it shouldn't. Rugby has had a system ("citing") for this for years and it seems to work quite well. Diving is cheating and it shows a fundamental lack of respect for the spirit of the game. It's just below deliberately trying to injure an opposition player and spitting at an opponent in order of bad sportmanship in my book. I agree with Neil Warnock who said that divers should get a six match ban. There would soon be less diving :)

What remains to be seen is how consistantly this will be enforced by UEFA.

Meanwhile in Premiershipville, Roman Abramovich has his wallet nailed shut till 2011 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/8236187.stm)

[RoommateRiot]

As an American, one of the reasons I like Soccer so much is because of things like "no instant reply." I like soccer best when it's flowing and seamless. If the five referees all miss something, then they are bad referees.

Clearly in a perfect world, there'd be no diving in soccer. But to me, it's not worth it to bring in instant reply. Otherwise you're just watching American football, and the shit takes all day.

Also, I think it definitely was not a penalty. But I'm not sure one way or the other regarding intent. Wenger has been saying that Eduardo was just worried after the horrible leg break he had two seasons ago. This could be made up, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true either. I know I'd be a little more cautious after that incident.

[DumbGrunt]

I don't want to see instant replay decisions during the game either. The Eduardo decision was made days after the fact so the game didn't get interupted. :)

Also, his injury, horrific as it was, shouldn't be a defence against cheating. Check item 4 to see how a sportsman would deal with such an incident (http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N157515071031-0959.htm)

[Modest Genius]

As an American, one of the reasons I like Soccer so much is because of things like "no instant reply." I like soccer best when it's flowing and seamless. If the five referees all miss something, then they are bad referees.

Clearly in a perfect world, there'd be no diving in soccer. But to me, it's not worth it to bring in instant reply. Otherwise you're just watching American football, and the shit takes all day.
five refs? what version of the game are you playing?

anyway, no-one is suggesting there should be instant replays during the game. what they're suggesting is that video evidence should be used to hand out suspensions AFTER the game, where merited.

I haven't actually seen the incident in question (yay for having competing TV channels that won't share footage), so I can't comment.

[RoommateRiot]

five refs? what version of the game are you playing?

I meant three, my bad. I think I've heard the term "fourth official" before though. Does this exist?

anyway, no-one is suggesting there should be instant replays during the game. what they're suggesting is that video evidence should be used to hand out suspensions AFTER the game, where merited..

I'm OK with that, but only if there is some system in place to determine when it is merited, and it doesn't happen every time some manager complains. As of right now, UEFA says it has no intention to further ferret out of divers.

[Modest Genius]

I meant three, my bad. I think I've heard the term "fourth official" before though. Does this exist?
yeah, he's the guy who holds up the board with the numbers if someone is substituted. he's really just there as a reserve in case the real ref gets injured

[DumbGrunt]

He also stops the managers from becoming involved in any untoward fisticuff type situations.

[Polish Hill]

My favorite is when the linesmen get offsides calls wrong. Sure its not an easy job but come on guys.

Eduardo's dive is a joke and I think its great that someone is finally taking a stand. Sure there's the inevitable avalanche of accusations of him being made an example/inequality with how other team's divers are treated and so forth but its better than nothing. And I believe replay is merited for a few incidents. Although it doesn't happen often a goal going uncounted is ridiculous and should have no place in modern sport. The idea that it taints the game is laughable. I won't the correct scoreline and I don't want penalties awarded for actors.

[RoommateRiot]

Just in case David Beckham's opinion matters:

Beckham instead praised Eduardo, saying that it was difficult to read what was going through the Croatian's mind when he tried to avoid a tackle in the match against Celtic.

Beckham said: "There has been far too much talk about diving.

"No-one wants to see it and it is disappointing when it happens. But it happens every week and Eduardo is not the first person to have done it.

"The whole thing should be put to bed. Eduardo is a great player. It is not that long ago that he suffered an horrific injury.

"You don't know what was going through his mind. He might have been trying to get out of the way of a tackle so he didn't get injured again."

http://arsenal-mania.com/articles/3107383/Beckham-Enough-with-diving-and-Eduardo.html

[nojmaster]

I just reckon that Eduardo's been scapegoated, considering players have been diving for years. Also, if UEFA are going to get involved more in this sort of thing, where do they stop?

Say a player dives in the Champions League final, and the resultant penalty wins the game. If the dive is seen afterwards as being deliberate, what of the result? Do they replay the game? And what about other decisions, like bad off-side calls or incidents where the ball goes over the goal line but isn't counted? These sort of things have to be on the spot decisions, and it wouldn't take long for a "video referee" to view replays of controversial or difficult incidents.

Tennis has a good approach, IIRC, in that each player gets a certain number of calls they can make to have an umpire's decision reviewed by replay if they want. How about giving each team's captian, or manager, three chances to have a decision looked at during the course of a game?

[RoommateRiot]

I just reckon that Eduardo's been scapegoated, considering players have been diving for years. Also, if UEFA are going to get involved more in this sort of thing, where do they stop?

Say a player dives in the Champions League final, and the resultant penalty wins the game. If the dive is seen afterwards as being deliberate, what of the result? Do they replay the game? And what about other decisions, like bad off-side calls or incidents where the ball goes over the goal line but isn't counted? These sort of things have to be on the spot decisions, and it wouldn't take long for a "video referee" to view replays of controversial or difficult incidents.

This.

[Polish Hill]

Hell, it'd be nice to have a challenge similar to American Football. Perhaps you get a chance per half and if the decision is overturned then your chance is restored. Obviously a lot of purists would hate the idea and I can't see it happening any time soon but who knows.

[Modest Genius]

the problem is when would you issue the challenge. in tennis, the point is over within seconds, whereas in football there could be 10 minutes of play before play stops and gives people the chance to challenge. the same is true in american football - play rarely lasts more than a few seconds and there is a well-defined point to restart from.

goaline incidents are important and there must be a way of sorting them out, but I don't think video challenges are the way to go in football. subjective decisions like penalty awards certainly could not be made via video replay.

[RoommateRiot]

I still say "Fuck it."

I like that if the ref misses it, the ref missed it. It gives us all something to bitch about when our team gets slighted, and something to feel smug about when it works in our favor. Of course we all know it's cheap, but this is just soccer, not War or something.

That's just me though. I also feel that the referees usually do a pretty awesome job of spotting things I might never have spotted. If they consistently sucked at their job, it would be a different story.

[Polish Hill]

The system in hockey could always work. I can't recall the specifics but I believe that if the command center of the NHL (monitors all replays and so forth) finds a goal scored or what have you at the next stop in play I believe the goal is awarded and the clock reset to what it would have been. The stops in play could be throw ins, set pieces, or subs. It might not be perfect but even a game or two where the outcome is changed due to a incorrectly called goal or dive should be unacceptable.

One of the huge things in these Euro leagues is that although the possibility is slim, that one poor call could be the difference in a team being relegated or promoted. That is certainly millions of dollars/pounds/Euros/gold worth in revenue for a club. So rather than ever face that scenario I would hope something would be done.

[DumbGrunt]

It gives us all something to bitch about when our team gets slighted, and something to feel smug about when it works in our favor.

Kinda this, although if you follow Dundee United (officially the most heart fucking breaking team to support in the universe) you certainly get more oppertunity to bitch than to be smug, especially when up against the Old Firm :(....

e1SJcrTrAks

BCJUzPGjiao

Does have it's lighter moments though...

xKuLtLXl7FI

[Modest Genius]

The system in hockey could always work. I can't recall the specifics but I believe that if the command center of the NHL (monitors all replays and so forth) finds a goal scored or what have you at the next stop in play I believe the goal is awarded and the clock reset to what it would have been. The stops in play could be throw ins, set pieces, or subs. It might not be perfect but even a game or two where the outcome is changed due to a incorrectly called goal or dive should be unacceptable.
this is probably the way to go, but it would also require replacing the 90min + stoppage time running clock with a stop clock, probably 80min. tbh I think that's something they should do anyway.

xKuLtLXl7FI
lol, it's like watching your mates have a kickabout at the park. that's some shitty football there, regardless of the blind ref

[DumbGrunt]

Fuck you Werner von Fucking Braun :)

[DumbGrunt]

United get fair result in Glasgow shock!!!! (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/dundee-united/celtic-held-at-home-to-dundee-united-1.919579)

Meanwhile, on the other side of town, Rangers can't win either (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/rangers/rangers-lucky-to-maintain-unbeaten-spl-record-against-motherwell-1.919480)

The SFA will likely launch some kind of inquiry.

St Mirren still can't win a game at their new stadium (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/st-johnstone/troubled-st-mirren-hold-st-johnstone-to-a-draw-1.919600)

Mind you, at least they had a game. The Hearts v Kilmarnock game was cancelled because a lorry went on fire. (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/fire-on-m8-sparks-tailback-chaos-on-nation-s-busiest-road-1.919435)

And that ends the weekend's SPL news

[RoommateRiot]

City 4 - 2 Arsenal. :(

With a head stomp on van Persie by Adebayor that I don't know how I feel about.

[DumbGrunt]

At least Eduardo's diving ban has been overturned on appeal.

[Modest Genius]

First look at the van persie stamp, I thought adebayour was just recovering his balance and it wasn't deliberate. I'm sure that's the impression the ref got. However, watching it again from the other angle, he did seem to stamp down deliberately.

[RoommateRiot]

At least Eduardo's diving ban has been overturned on appeal.

:D I know.

I still am not sure about the Adebayor thing. My logic followed the same as yours, MG, but the other way around. At first I thought there was intent, now I'm not sure. I guess they hugged it out after the match.

[DumbGrunt]

I watched the highlights on Saturday and I thought I saw Adebayor stamp quite badly on Sagna's leg.

[RoommateRiot]

I missed that one. Youtube links?

[Polish Hill]

lololol beach ball goal is ridiculous that it was allowed to stand.

Anyone here pick up FIFA 10? Have Live?

[Modest Genius]

lololol beach ball goal is ridiculous that it was allowed to stand
it was against the scousers, so everyone just laughs and moves on

[cpt.mars]

it was against the scousers, so everyone just laughs and moves on

:(

*Hides Gerrard Jersey behind back*

[nojmaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4

[RoommateRiot]

lololol beach ball goal is ridiculous that it was allowed to stand.

whatcha talking about? i missed it.

[Polish Hill]

http://www.searchcowboys.com/news/1152

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/19/liverpool-sunderland-beachball-replay