[C3I] Review

[General Bordinko]

Post what you liked and didn't like about the game. Sometime in the future after I have my kid and make sure my job is stable I plan on doing [C3I] '68 so any comments or criticism will be helpful.

[CaptCommy]

I feel like the unit selection was wayyyy too big. I know a lot of people really enjoyed that, but I was kinda overwhelmed by all the choices and didn't have the time to research which ones performed best and the like. I tried basing my choices on cost, but that kinda fell apart as we all saw.

I also felt like there was a lot of room to play, like the industrial upgrade IRON did. Wasn't really in the rules anywhere, and I could see people getting upset they didn't know it was an option. I would stress the fact that you can do a lot more than what's covered in the rules you posted.

[Captain Colon]

actually commy i'm pretty sure your dudes slaughtered mine when i had no air support, but the results for the last week were never posted so we may never know

[Polish Hill]

I didn't really like the lack of any real firm rules. It seemed like if you asked about it there was a way it could be implemented. Which certainly can be cool but its a little unsettling when suddenly your being nuked or robbed and you can't really take any measures to prevent that.

It also seemed like we never quite got onto a nice schedule. It felt like you were rushed at times and who knows what kind of errors that could have lead to besides the amount of dinkos a country might produce a round.

And although the scale of battles was awesome it seems like that really bogged down some of the simulations and I'm not sure whether it was able to reflect some of the massive armies a few people had.

Overall very fun but it could use some polish and maybe a bit more transparency.

[CaptCommy]

actually commy i'm pretty sure your dudes slaughtered mine when i had no air support, but the results for the last week were never posted so we may never know

Yeah, but that was after I switched to British units that were tested in-sim and all that.

[Captain Colon]

oh lol owned ahahahahaha

[GrosPoisson]

I enjoyed the game as a whole because it was so open-ended. My only real complaint would be the limited range of transport and fighter aircraft, as it prevented me from executing devious master plans involving massed airborne drops.

[MatthewMarchand]

Fascist units costing twice as much kinda sucked, %50 would have been better.

Less reliance on SWAT and Tato's services. It was cool, and really open ended, but at the same time, WMDs sucked.

I still vote for the late 60s game where all the kit of more balanced, and other then some mercs, the PMCs don't really exist yet.

[BAS]

I didnt like how the battles were pretty much random as far as who'd kill what.

[GrosPoisson]

I didnt like how the battles were pretty much random as far as who'd kill what.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/GrosPoisson/jellocosby.jpg

That's Steel Panthers MBT in AI vs. AI mode, where your tanks will engage dismounted infantry that are farther away than the enemy tank that's staring right at them. Success is largely based on how well your army compensates for dumb AI decisions.

[Fallschirmjager]

Yeah dude, it's not really random. Better units beat shitty ones. Shitty ones can human wave good ones.

[CaptCommy]

Except, as we learned so clearly, human waves don't work. At least, not at the scale that we were playing.

[Captain Colon]

they could work, you just can't do them in spmbt cause there's a limit to how many units can be on the field at once

which is why we need a better way to do the battles

[Fallschirmjager]

lets use hearts of iron lol

[MatthewMarchand]

Except, as we learned so clearly, human waves don't work. At least, not at the scale that we were playing.

Massed infantry with no vehicles, and with ATGWs rape everything. Human waves do work.

[GrosPoisson]

Massed infantry with no vehicles, and with ATGWs rape everything. Human waves do work.

This. Human waves work, but they have to be the right kind of waves. On a related note, C3I '68 will allow me to do terrible, unspeakable things :panda:

[MatthewMarchand]

Indeed, not to mention that PMCs do not exists yet. With the exception of a few pissed off South African mercs.

68' offers fewer ATGWs, less accuracy with weapons, and I feel, would be way more fun.

[BAS]

As a side note my dudes regularly got raped by infantry with Javelins. There is russian equivelents of the javelin but if its in the game It sure wasnt in the unit spreadsheet. Also also for those of you mocking me for only using Russian units I was only doing it for the 5% discount since I was easily the poorest dude in the game. Communists got -3 dinkos per province and my country (at least at the start) was more than half the size of CaptCommys. I think my turn 1 income was like 96.

[Captain Colon]

you could've used only units from a country that had javelins

i was not aware the russians had anything like the javelin

[GrosPoisson]

Meh. Could've easily switched governments in week 2 or 3 before SHIT GOT REAL. Sure, you essentially lose a turn, but when your income is that shitty, seems like it'd be worth it in the long run.

[Arttemis]

So since the game's over, would anyone be willing to share their military makeup so we can see what works (and what doesn't)? I've attached my spreadsheet from Turn 6... unfortunately I was never tested except for a few sims I ran.

I think I needed more anti-air capability in all my units. I never tested my forces against an air-heavy attacker.

[Captain Colon]

A-10s work, everything else seems to be a toss-up

[MatthewMarchand]

Oh yes, one last reccomendation.

That we know what country we are, before we create our armies. If I had known where I was going to end up, I would have made some changes.

[CaptCommy]

I knew where I was before I made my army.

o.O

[MatthewMarchand]

Some of us didn't.

[BAS]

some of you were dumb

[MatthewMarchand]

Some of us didn't wait until the last second to do it.

[Fallschirmjager]

Yeah dude, I agree. Knowing where I was would have been a help, big time. I would have bought a lot of ATGMs to hold that bridge, as well as infantry and SAMs.

I'm pissed my Merkava Mk IVb's never saw action. They would have raged multiples of their number.

Also, to those curious as to what works, it's not too far of a stretch if you're not knowledgeable about the militaries of the world to do some research. Google + SPMBT will work wonders :)

[GrosPoisson]

>Pretending procrastination was some masterful stroke of tactical genius

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/GrosPoisson/20080412.gif

[BAS]

uh I purposfully told dinko i wasnt turning in my military until I saw where I was on the map. I spent like a week making my military but you think what you want.

[Captain Colon]

u mad?

[GrosPoisson]

I spent like a week making my military but you think what you want.

It took you a week to cobble together a third world army? SON I AM DISAPPOINT

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/GrosPoisson/vg21803_s9698_slavshitfuck.jpg

[MatthewMarchand]

uh i purposfully told dinko i wasnt turning in my military until i saw where i was on the map. I spent like a week making my military but you think what you want.

I am just saying we should all get that benefit

[BAS]

I'm agree with you. I'm just saying you should have waited to turn your shit in.

[MatthewMarchand]

I'm agree with you. I'm just saying you should have waited to turn your shit in.

Didn't know it was an option, I was told to give it in by a certain date. :cool:

[ScAvenger001]

I mentioned this before, but things like spot checks should happen once per battalion rather than once per side. That is, one battalion trying to sneak past another should require one check. A battalion trying to sneak past a division should require four (one for each of the spotting btns). A division trying to sneak past another division should require sixteen. Otherwise we end up with absurdities like 9999 air units passing 9999 other air units without engaging because somehow they didn't see each other after failing a single 1d6 roll.

Also, there really really really needs to be some way to reflect huge force disparities. One unfortified division being engaged by 10 should probably be overrun or forced to surrender pretty quickly, it certainly shouldn't be causing twice its own number in casualties before being destroyed.

[GrosPoisson]

Also, there really really really needs to be some way to reflect huge force disparities. One unfortified division being engaged by 10 should probably be overrun or forced to surrender pretty quickly, it certainly shouldn't be causing twice its own number in casualties before being destroyed.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Camo_Workshop/MBT/MBT_page.html

Play with the in-game preferences and let us know if you find a viable solution. Make sure you apply all the patches.

[ScAvenger001]

I have, and the best I've been able to come up with is troop quality bonuses and penalties, though the slider there doesn't really go far enough to really reflect large disparities. I'm hoping someone more familiar with the game than I will be able to come up with something better. I agree that there are limits to what can be done here.

[MatthewMarchand]

I mentioned this before, but things like spot checks should happen once per battalion rather than once per side. That is, one battalion trying to sneak past another should require one check. A battalion trying to sneak past a division should require four (one for each of the spotting btns). A division trying to sneak past another division should require sixteen. Otherwise we end up with absurdities like 9999 air units passing 9999 other air units without engaging because somehow they didn't see each other after failing a single 1d6 roll.

Also, there really really really needs to be some way to reflect huge force disparities. One unfortified division being engaged by 10 should probably be overrun or forced to surrender pretty quickly, it certainly shouldn't be causing twice its own number in casualties before being destroyed.

I agree with the first point, the second however...

How many times in history have numerically inferior units held, against overwhelming odds? I am sure we can all think of examples. Now, if it was a unit of Shermans against 10 divisions of Abrams...

[ScAvenger001]

It's important to point out that the noteworthy examples of inferior units holding against impossible odds is just that: noteworthy. If it was commonplace, nobody would care. And every instance I can think of, the smaller unit is dug in in some incredible way, which is why I qualified what I said as an unfortified unit being attacked. All other factors being equal, the smaller unit is incredi blytyg goddammit cat get off the keyboard.

What was I saying?

[MatthewMarchand]

It's important to point out that the noteworthy examples of inferior units holding against impossible odds is just that: noteworthy. If it was commonplace, nobody would care. And every instance I can think of, the smaller unit is dug in in some incredible way, which is why I qualified what I said as an unfortified unit being attacked. All other factors being equal, the smaller unit is incredi blytyg goddammit cat get off the keyboard.

What was I saying?

Fal has some pretty good shit...

[CapnAsshat]

Can't hug your children with nuclear arms. I was having lots of fun until the nukes.

[Captain Colon]

Also, there really really really needs to be some way to reflect huge force disparities. One unfortified division being engaged by 10 should probably be overrun or forced to surrender pretty quickly, it certainly shouldn't be causing twice its own number in casualties before being destroyed.
That's a problem with the engine, because you simply can't put 10 divisions on the field at once...If it's something like 2 brigades vs 2 divisions then everything can be accurately represented. If you have two brigades of heavy infantry with modern ATGMs being attacked by armor, then yeah they're going to take a good number to hell with them (especially when you factor in the shitty AI that will try to shoot them with SABOT and use the 7.62mm AAMG at a thousand yards and shit).

[Fallschirmjager]

yeah dude go figure that when a unit is assaulting a unit that outranges it, the assaulting unit dies.

[GrosPoisson]

Should be less of a problem in C3I '68 since there won't be units shitting Javelins left and right.

[Fallschirmjager]

I never had Javelins work effectively. Just 125mm rape cannons from hidden positions. FIGHT TO THE DEATH, MY STURM COMRADES.

[MatthewMarchand]

Should be less of a problem in C3I '68 since there won't be units shitting Javelins left and right.

Or A-10s, or predators, or attack helicopters.

Just old school recoiless shit.

[CapnAsshat]

they didn't have a-10s in '68?

[MatthewMarchand]

Entered service in 1977

[Fallschirmjager]

matt was just trolled

[CapnAsshat]

Nah I was actually asking. I didn't know that.

[MatthewMarchand]

Nah I was actually asking. I didn't know that.

But you get the choice of such fine aircraft as the F111, F105, A-4, A-1, ect.

[CapnAsshat]

dunno if I'll play '68. Getting nuked by a PMC in this one kinda turned me off to the whole idea

[GrosPoisson]

Word from on high is that PMCs will have a greatly reduced role in this one, and that we should expect the focus of the game to be about good old-fashioned Cold War slugfests instead.

[CapnAsshat]

Hmmm. Maybe I'll come back.

[MatthewMarchand]

Word from on high is that PMCs will have a greatly reduced role in this one, and that we should expect the focus of the game to be about good old-fashioned Cold War slugfests instead.

Indeed, in this era you are sort of limited to a few hundred Angry South African or Rhodesian mercs.

[Fallschirmjager]

dude you are all about those fucking Rhodesians. Fuck.

[MatthewMarchand]

dude you are all about those fucking Rhodesians. Fuck.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b3/Selious.JPG/180px-Selious.JPG

:lincoln:

[General Bordinko]

dude you are all about those fucking Rhodesians. Fuck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Bush_War

[MatthewMarchand]

And the South Africans are cool too for their Bush War experience.

[Fallschirmjager]

??? IT iS A MYSTORY oOOOoooooooooooooOOOOOOOO

[Fallschirmjager]

What happened to the REVIVAL

[General Bordinko]

Its funny you mention this.....