Do FPS games really help?

[sulsa]

Gentlemen,
The pantie waste liberals want America to believe that FPS (first person shooter) games are training our kids to be killers.
Any of you attribute any sort of skill or increased ability in anything, to FPS games?

edit:
christ I hope so... it'll costs the military less to train you, lowers my taxes, and kills more bad guys... ;)

[Mirsky]

Well if nothing else, certain FPS' will teach the rudimentaries of teamwork.

[[Political] Slayer]

I play alot of FPS game, and I have learned how to pick certain items out of a scene, like a sniper in a bush, etc. My reflexes are faster, hand to eye coordination is alot better. I think they help because alot of those are needed to be in the military. And I agree with mirsky, but only some. CS and FA all didn't really have much for teamwork, but like BF2, when I am commander, I use my whole team and tell them where to go, when to attack and make plans, and I have yet to lose a battle.

I would like to ask the libs how the hell does a controller or keyboard in any way teach you how to kill with a gun if they are nothing alike?

[Supplanter]

Sulsa they are partially right it is training kids, though not to kill but just what the rest of the kids life will be pounding a keyboard 8 hours a day making software for the robot army :D

[Airborne506]

Slayer']I play alot of FPS game, and I have learned how to pick certain items out of a scene, like a sniper in a bush, etc. My reflexes are faster, hand to eye coordination is alot better.

This is probably coupled with my interest in military/WW2, but when I walk down a street or somewhere I always think "sniper might be in there, good cover there, etc." It's just a reaction I guess.

[StandingCow]

Might teach you to be more observant of your surroundings and teamwork...

But as far as increasing the chances of you going out and killing people because of FPS... is bullshit.

[GoatChomper]

If anything, there's evidence that heavy FPS-ing is actually detrimental to military service. Less than a year ago I ran across a no-bullshit report that Finland, which has compulsory service, is having to reject a third of their conscripts each year as physically and/or psychologically unfit for the rigors of service due to their having spent so much time at the keyboard.

[vecdran]

FPS may teach a modicum of tactics and reflexes, but as far as actually shooting a gun or knowing how to kill stuff in real life, bullshit. I saw a kid at the range once actually trying to pull the forward assist on an AR15, thinking that's what you pulled after you reloaded.

[Fearfisch]

Definitely not, it's great and all seeing a gun on a monitor (nevermind inaccurate animations and so on), but it's completely different actually holding and operating a firearm. Shooting has to be learned "hands-on".

[lucky644]

Sulsa they are partially right it is training kids, though not to kill but just what the rest of the kids life will be pounding a keyboard 8 hours a day making software for the robot army :D

What is your signature from?

[Supplanter]

It does seem like it might help your reflexes a bit, but it might also just play with your head and make you over confident about nothing.



What is your signature from?

Its from the Do The Evolution music video by Pearl Jam

[lucky644]

It does seem like it might help your reflexes a bit, but it might also just play with your head and make you over confident about nothing.





Its from the Do The Evolution music video by Pearl Jam

Interesting, by the way, it's 400K over the signature filesize limit.

[Fearfisch]

By the way, the rules don't mention any filesize limits for sigs.

[Mikemyers64]

of course, take a look at americas army.

[lucky644]

By the way, the rules don't mention any filesize limits for sigs.

Oversight, filesize limit is 150k. Rules will be amended.

[StandingCow]

When I first shot the M16 in basic the first thing that came to mind was firearms, hehe

[Supplanter]

When I first shot the M16 in basic the first thing that came to mind was firearms, hehe

When I think about guns I always think about there being a green crosshair in front of it :)

BTW ty for the info lucky, the sig is down to 144kb

[Wallrod]

A study by some university showed that kids that played games were able to track multiple objects in one scene a lot better.

Found the article: http://www.collegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/30/3f791e93602b6

[GoatChomper]

of course, take a look at americas army.
Nope.....a real battlefield doesn't let you use hacks to have a clear view through fog, and a real squad won't be composed of one-half snipers.

[BlindSite]

I think he was kidding?

Certainly not. For starters pointing and clicking multiple times after running for 5 minutes is far different from trying to steady a weapon heavy in your hands after running full tilt to take a shot at someone firing back. BIG Difference.

[gYmBaG]

A study by some university showed that kids that played games were able to track multiple objects in one scene a lot better.

Found the article: http://www.collegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/30/3f791e93602b6
yeah, i read an article somewhere, i dunno if thats it, im too lazy to click it:p but it said kids who played FPS games where more aware of their suroundings, and could track and be aware of things going on around them up to 40% better then kids who dont play FPS games.

[SWATJester_os]

FPS games didn't prepare me for shit for war. They didn't make it easier to pull the trigger, the army did. What they did do though was teach me things like looking for snipers, avenues of approach, etc.

[SinistralRifleman]

I don't believe they mean real training...they mean psychological conditioning that makes it easier for kids to kill people because they have disassociated the act of killing in their minds and it feels like a game.

One of the leading "experts" pushing this idea is well known psychologist Col. Grossman. Some of his research is well done...other parts I believe he let his personal opinions influence too much.

http://www.cavalryarms.com/funny/comic7.gif

[puke o'hara]

If anything, there's evidence that heavy FPS-ing is actually detrimental to military service. Less than a year ago I ran across a no-bullshit report that Finland, which has compulsory service, is having to reject a third of their conscripts each year as physically and/or psychologically unfit for the rigors of service due to their having spent so much time at the keyboard.That's what they told round 'ere too to be the reason behind that, although the army didn't investigate the specific reasons. I think it's clear though that wasting one's time away at the keyboard probably won't improve one's condition, but there's a more general change in the lifestyles of people that makes them less fit, physically and mentally, for military service. In the physical side, the army has started to pay more attention particularly to the fitness of those servicemen who aren't too fit when they enter the army, but I don't really know what'd help on the mental side. Thankfully, this isn't one of problems of mine, but that has very little to do with this thread.

[Captain Colon]

A study by some university showed that kids that played games were able to track multiple objects in one scene a lot better.

Found the article: http://www.collegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/30/3f791e93602b6
I read something like this, but they said it made the kids better at multitasking if I recall...might've been the same study with the article on it differently worded or something.

[Memorex]

I'd say it helps, but I don't know how well it will work.. for aiming and stuff o_O. Reflexes and Teamwork maybe so.

[GrosPoisson]

FPS games definitely don't help you shoot in the real world. I was firing a collection of .22 pistols at an outdoor firing range a couple of months ago, and I was all over the paper even though it was only 10 yards away. My hands tend to "wander" when I'm holding something out in front of me like a pistol, so the fact that I've been playing FPS games for the past ten years means nothing.

[tombanius]

it might help with your reflexes.. i have bit shaky hands when i'm holding something up but i still hit allright with a pistol

[[hk]renegade]

FPS is a game OIF is a real war is that a good enough answer?

[gYmBaG]

renegade']FPS is a game OIF is a real war is that a good enough answer?
lol yeah, no game will prepair you for the real thing, improving reflexes or not, it still wont help

[SWATJester_os]

renegade']FPS is a game OIF is a real war is that a good enough answer?

Where in florida do you live?

[theubc]

Nope.....a real battlefield doesn't let you use hacks to have a clear view through fog, and a real squad won't be composed of one-half snipers.
You damn right!
Stupid liberals just want to bitch about everything.

[lucky644]

You damn right!
Stupid liberals just want to bitch about everything.

Let's try not to make this into a political discussion.

[FaKToR]

I see no problem with FPS games nor do I see much military value that wouldn't be dual use (such as developing teamwork). I seriously doubt there are many who claim it carries directly over, such as marksmanship. More likely it is arguing a desensitizing effect. I can't speak for the accuracy of these claims, but I can say that video games don't come close to portraying the brutality of real life violence. Though maybe they don't need to in order to have a desensitizing effect, maybe they just need to convince people this is what violence is like in the real world.

[theubc]

Let's try not to make this into a political discussion.
Sry it just slipped. :(

[Daywalker]

The only thing I heard that it did was help prioritize targets. Teaches kids to look which one is the biggest threat to you and to shoot them in that order. Makes sense I guess, but I don't know if it would be more usefull in war or shooting up a mall.

[BattleWhack]

As far as actual marksmanship, no. It's a lot different in real life. Unless you are knowledgeable and proficient with correct sight picture, correct sight alignment, bone support, triggle control, and breathing control, you aren't going to be able to hit the target at 500 yards. Those are things that games just don't teach. And as far as other aspects of warfare, gaming may help with the extremely rudimentary nuances, but other than that, games have no impact that can be taken seriously.

In my opinion, of course.

[Enders]

of course games don't teach how to actully fire a weapon (since most games just throw away the whole wind-distance-drop details), but if you guys ever just sit back and look, imagine how much an FPS gamer learns to prioritize (sp?), react in split second decisions, and engage in teamwork with other players (that's not always the easiest, but it's loads of fun if it does work)
An example would be the HUD of basically any FPS. You got things like ammo counter, health, armor counter, possible map, timer, directions to objectives, etc. to keep track of, and at the same time, go out there and kill the opposing players.

[Milkman Dan]

I remember I had a C++ teacher who was going off on this rhetoric about how shooting games increase a kid's ability to reload, cock, and handle weapons. That's just total bullshit. So many soccer moms are trying to find some strand of research to help take the focus off of their bad parenting, and put it on something like the video games they mindless buy their children. It's just a bunch of scapegoat crap.

[theubc]

I remember I had a C++ teacher who was going off on this rhetoric about how shooting games increase a kid's ability to reload, cock, and handle weapons. That's just total bullshit. So many soccer moms are trying to find some strand of research to help take the focus off of their bad parenting, and put it on something like the video games they mindless buy their children. It's just a bunch of scapegoat crap.
Well your teacher is an idiot. Tell him that please.

[Milkman Dan]

Well your teacher is an idiot. Tell him that please.
It was a she, not a he. I gave her a good speech about how it was soccer mom scapegoat bullshit.

She wasn't too bright to begin with.

[Mystrick]

To an extent, it does, but it doesn't help with proper handling, recoil adjustment, or saftey.

[Milkman Dan]

To an extent, it does, but it doesn't help with proper handling, recoil adjustment, or saftey.
Proper handling, recoil adjustment, safety usage, assembly/disasembly, proper cocking, and most importantly...aiming.

[undertone]

You know, i'd seriously like to ask some of these parents some questions, like which part of parenting are they doing.

[Mystrick]

None, they're letting everyone else do it for them. All they want is to spread their seed like a smart virus. It is riddled with mistakes, but hell, does it spread faster that way.

[Fubar]

I see no problem with FPS games nor do I see much military value that wouldn't be dual use (such as developing teamwork). I seriously doubt there are many who claim it carries directly over, such as marksmanship. More likely it is arguing a desensitizing effect. I can't speak for the accuracy of these claims, but I can say that video games don't come close to portraying the brutality of real life violence. Though maybe they don't need to in order to have a desensitizing effect, maybe they just need to convince people this is what violence is like in the real world.


Yeah i agree with the above, Americas Army is a great example of that, and i'd be preaty certain that they intended to tone down the violence to make a career in the ARMY more appleaing to potential recruits.

[[hk]renegade]

SWAT I live by west palm, in a town called port st lucie

[Karaya1]

I've read both On Killing and On Combat by Mr. Grossman and as was stated above, some of the research is good but there is a lot of personal opinion. Hell, at the end of On Killing he basically endorsed gun control.
On combat was a good book i thought. Loved the parts about the different conditions your body goes through and some of the crazy things it does in certain situations. Overall a good read. On killing was good too, the firing rate of the US military and how it increased since WW2 due to new training techniques was pretty cool to learn about. About the video games training us to kill, i don'T really buy into it very much.

[akodo]

playing doubles badmitten or knitting will help with your hand-eye co-ordination (although doubles badmitten probably is better at teaching teamwork than knitting)

of course, i believe that not all hand-eye coordination is the same. A jeweler is going to have very good hand-eye coordination in a very minute scale, and a doctor who does a lot of stiching will have something similar, and may be able to master the tasks a jeweler does a bit faster than someone else due to already having fine motorskills...but this is different from the hand-eye and fine motorskills a baseball pitcher would have, or a juggler, and they themselves would be different from say one of those trick shooters who throws up 10 clays and shoots them out of the air. etc etc.

I think FPS teaches a kind of hand-eye coordination that owuld be handy using other computer programs, say a spreadsheet, or running certian types of specialized equipment, but to me swinging aorund the mouse and tapping different keys is really a wrist activity, not very similar to the finger coordination of a great shooter.

I suppose you could learn about tactics playing FPS, but that is going to be based on the extent that 'traditional tactics" are built in by the game developer. Similar things could also be learned in other games, be they strategic games like Age of Empires, tabletop minatures games like Warhammer 40k, or Napolionics Minatures, or even some of the more complicated military based boardgames. Or watching war movies. These are all dependant on how well the designers factored in tactical realities. For example, history has shown us that attacking an enemy from the rear can cause a lot of confusion and fear in the enemy, but if the game doesn't factor this in (the only advantage in approaching from the rear is the enemy is not shooting at you) then you cannot really learn it.


Regarding the study that talks about video game players tracking multiple objects better, the test was done using a display at approximately arms lenght. I have no doubt that FPS will incease your ability to track obects appearing on a screen, or a close wall display or a fishtank 4 feet away, etc. However, i would be very suprised if this ability to track multiple objects would translate to traking objects in a 180 degree field of view at distances of 1 to 5000 yards, etc etc.

[SWATJester_os]

renegade']SWAT I live by west palm, in a town called port st lucie


That's so funny man, I live up in gardens. My parents have a law office in PSL. We gotta go out for drinks when you get back in country

[meifunk]

I would argue that the most beneficial (if you'd call it that) thing that might come from playing FPS' would be the desensitizing effect, and I still question if it exists.



As far as weapons usage, as I'm sure others will confirm (since most of them already have) nothing prepares you for a real-life situation. Training helps, and it gives you the foundation to resolve/neutralize a situation quickly, but until you're in the real thing, you never know.

I (thankfully) have never had to do anything beyond draw my Beretta. Usually that's enough to diffuse a hostile situation, but not always. For me personally, it's still difficult to draw down on someone. If it's me or them, it's going to be me, though. I will not risk myself, or my team (boarding team), because I'm wishy-washy about defending myself.

As far as aiming, and overall handling of weapons, games don't help. Only knowing your weapons nomenclature, and practice/immediate action drills will help. I spend a lot of time at the range, both on duty and off.

Someone that's not military/LE tell me what to do if you have a squid round? A misfire? A stovepipe? I know some will be able to answer, and of you, how many of you have taken the immediate action? It's hard to do it on the range, since it doesn't happen often (well, I guess that depends on the weapon). It can be harder to do it in a live situation. On the range you're focused on your target. In a real situation, you're focused on everything around you. Adrenaline helps to an extent, as it will lower your reaction time.

Someone that doesn't shoot a lot (or at all), but plays FPS' a lot tell me what you're probably doing wrong when your group is low and to the right?

Also, consider other gear you might carry. In a video game, you have a lot of gear, it slows you down and drains your stamina bar quicker. You don't have a stamina bar in real life. You don't have a HUD (yet) that keeps track of your ammunition. Oh yeah, you most certainly don't have hitpoints.

When I'm firing our Practical Pistol Course and have to do a tactical magazine change (read: IT'S NOT A FUCKING CLIP, ASSHOLES), I have to count each round I fire in my head. I know I start with fifteen, but I have to do a magazine change at four rounds... Note: The total time to do this is ... Six seconds, two position changes also occur in this phase of fire. Now throw a misfire in there. I move through it fluidly. I've also been doing this for a while, on a weekly basis, for eight hours a day. Usually.

As far as prioritizing targets? I don't know. I don't get a set group of targets. When we do boardings, the majority of the time it's on civillian vessels. Oh crap, but they're not the enemy!? Well, maybe they are, if they get pissy and are out to stick it to the man. Alaskan fisherman are generally not happy when the USCG shows up. You add into the mix several crewmembers that probably don't want any trouble/don't speak English/are whacked out on with a few assholes spread into the mix... They all look the same, they're all loopy as shit, which one is the biggest priority? Well, if one has a weapon [i]that you can see it's an obvious choice. But that's not always the case.

Reflexes? Forget it. Twitching a mouse is one thing. Teaching yourself not to shoot the wrong person/make the wrong move in real life is another. Try turning 90 degrees on a rolling vessel wearing full BTM outfit while maintaining a neutral stance. It ain't easy, you also can't assume that every action a person takes is hostile. This is especially hard to learn. Demeanor plays a lot into that, something you don't get from video games either.

Teamwork... I can see this. In large clan games, yes. Pick-up games on the internet? Rarely. Even so, it's a lot different when you actually have to ensure the safety of yourself and everyone else.

I could go on...


Okay, so all the ranting aside, I don't think FPS' are all that beneficiary to real-life combat situations. Why? The main reason that stands out to me, is that when I watch people play FPS', they're very reckless in their tactics, even in the realism games. I realize that boarding a ship is a lot different than ground combat, but urban combat and room-clearing tactics for ground combat are the same things we use on suspect vessels. We don't fuck around. There are far too many variables in the real world that cannot be captured by a video game.

Just for a moment, consider sound alone. Are you painfully deafened by an FPS when you fire, or a teammate fires next to you? Maybe startled, but not in pain (unless you're really hardcore and have enormous speakers attached to each side of your head). If flashbangs work on the principle of Sound/Concussion/Light, what do you think happens when someone pops off a round six inches away from your ear?

One things for sure, your vision more than blurs.

Sorry to rant, I just hate comparisons of video games to real life.

[SWATJester_os]

Good comparison though. The first time I had to do an immediate action on my m16 in a combat situation though, i'd had it drilled into my head SO MANY TIMES that it was purely instinctual....hell it was smooth as fuck too. Same thing on the m240, though I hadn't practiced the maneuver, I knew the immediate action steps by heart, and I know how to perform each step, and it went smoothly.

However, being infantry, that's our job is to know those things by heart.


BTW in case anyone is wondering, for the m16 the immediate action drill is called sports.

SLAP PULL OBSERVE RELEASE TAP SQUEEZE....practice marching in cadence and saying each word every step....our basic training company when we heard " left....your left right....." or something like that, every time the cadence caller said that, the whole formation would chant the steps of sports.

Slap the magazine in, pull the charging handle to the rear, observe the chamber for an obstruction/to see flying brass, release the charging handle, tap the forward assist 3 times, squeeze the trigger.

You can do the whole SPORTS in about 1 second, smoothly.......slap the bottom of the magazine while tilting the weapon to the left, pull the charging handle all the way back, observe the chamber (only if you don't see brass flying, if you see the brass flying, you're all good), release, tap the forward assist, squeeze the trigger.

Repeat over and over and over and over and over and over ad nauseum.

M240/m249 immediate action? pull the trigger, bolt to the rear, charging handle forward, ensure weapon on fire, pull the trigger,

if that doesn't work bolt to the rear, charging handle forward, weapon on safe, lift feed tray cover, sweep the tray clear of links, lift the feed tray assembly, sweep clear of links (also sweep the bolt's travel path here too), rake your fingers across the guide rod, look in the chamber for stoppage, reinsert belt, close feed tray cover, weapon on fire, pull trigger.

It becomes second nature to do all that in less than 4 seconds.

[meifunk]

Yeah, I've got the Beretta 92 and the M16 A2 down pat. We use the M249-G though, and I'm not too familiar with that. I hear word that we're switching to an H&K .40 pistol. I can't wait, our Service Berettas are aging. I've seen many a cracked slide, and it makes me nervous every time I coach on the range.

Have you ever run across a squid round, SWAT? If so, what caliber?

SLAP, SWEEP, RACK for the Beretta. You'd be amazed how many people panic when they get a stovepipe. If it wasn't for safety concerns, it'd almost be hilarious.

[GoatChomper]

Someone that's not military/LE tell me what to do if you have a squid round? A misfire? A stovepipe?
Try to clear it.....and if it doesn't work on the first try, run like hell.

[SWATJester_os]

Never heard of the term squid round?

[meifunk]

Hmm, maybe that's just how we refer to it. Squid round is low propellant in the cartridge. Feels like a misfire usually, or just a diminished recoil. Bullet gets stuck in the barrel, real dangerous if you don't notice it. If it happened when you tried to shoot someone, better hope you can outrun them.

To clear it... Well, let's just say it a lot of fun, and it's not something immediate action covers. I've seen one out of all my range time.

[GoatChomper]

S-q-u-i-b

[meifunk]

Really? I always heard it as Squid. Meh.

[SWATJester_os]

ohhhh ok that makes sense....yeah I've had one, on a m249 belt on the range. Had to use a cleaning rod to remove the round.

[uglygun]

Only thing I think that some PC fps games might help to establish are things like the concepts of cover versus concealment and some CQB type tactics with relation to movement and cover. And that is iffy.


The games may help establish a mentality towards target priority and shooting till a threat is stopped but that is even more iffy depending on whether said "gamer" is a person who's been keen on conserving ammo or just been a wild idiot spraying everywhere. And it could have no bearing at all on what they would do in an actual real world shooting even if they had a modest amount of experience shooting actual firearms.

[akodo]

what i get a laugh out of is guys whose gun info comes entirely from video games.

I remember a guy who called down to a range to see if they rented guns. Yup they rented guns. How much? X dollars. How many clips come with that? umm...1, sometimes 2. Really? is that all?

by a guy who obviously had no idea what a magazine was, and didn't realize those clips don't sit on the ground for oyu to run over and magically have your ammo count increase. It was like a 'clip' for a beretta 92 was a caseless ammo block that gave 15 shots and then disappeared. Had no idea that you would buy a few boxes of 50 rounds and have to stick them IN the mag agian and agian until full, put mag in gun, fire gun, remove mag, stick more rounds in the mag again and again until full.

[Lord Kelvin]

IMO the liberals preaching crap about video games are idiots; hell, I'm a liberal (kinda) and I think Hillary Clinton's a bitch.

But back on topic. I suppose that playing violent games could theoretically make it easier to kill someone if you're desensitized to killing, but IMO they would be extreme cases like those fucktards who stabbed some girl to death because they were "inspired" by GTA III. Some games, like Full Spectrum Warrior, I suppose, could "teach" players how to move from cover to cover, proper firing-and-covering techniques, bounding, etc. (I remember reading in a recent EGM that some guy joined the USMC because of FSW); but in the end, I think the results vary from person to person, depending on that person's mind state.

[Mystrick]

If you're going to go crazy from a video game, you would have gone crazy anyways.

[SWATJester_os]

IMO the liberals preaching crap about video games are idiots; hell, I'm a liberal (kinda) and I think Hillary Clinton's a bitch.

But back on topic. I suppose that playing violent games could theoretically make it easier to kill someone if you're desensitized to killing, but IMO they would be extreme cases like those fucktards who stabbed some girl to death because they were "inspired" by GTA III. Some games, like Full Spectrum Warrior, I suppose, could "teach" players how to move from cover to cover, proper firing-and-covering techniques, bounding, etc. (I remember reading in a recent EGM that some guy joined the USMC because of FSW); but in the end, I think the results vary from person to person, depending on that person's mind state.

FSW and Brothers in Arms begin to teach the rudiments of bold flanking maneuver, but don't go into detail as to why, and don't get into any of the finer elements of it that make you proficient at it....any infantryman knows there are MANY things involved in a flank: comms, shift fire, lift fire, weapon emplacement, LOA, actions on, etc.

[theubc]

If you're going to go crazy from a video game, you would have gone crazy anyways.
Agreed.