What level body armor do our front line troops wear?

[Kak]

Like what do American soldiers wear for the most part?

[Denwad]

the vest itself is level IIIA

with rifleplates ( which are pretty common ) which is level 4 IV

[Kak]

Does anyone know what Russia Federation troops stationed in Chechnya wear for protective armor? And what the equivilent rating would be in the Kevlar level rating?

[Seanobi]

Let's ask Krechet.

[Wallrod]

Nah, he'd just copy-paste something from some obscure book.

[TimRice]

Let's ask Krechet.

OLOLOLOLOLOLOLL.

no.

[gYmBaG]

how much do the armor plates weight? ive never felt one, ive worn a kev vest before and thats pretty heavy it self, i cant imagin having steel plates in it as well

[Shadow]

Krechet, no, it was Generic Soldier...

Yep, as stated above, Level IIIA soft armor, with Rifle plates added bring the total protection to Level IV.

[knute]

how much do the armor plates weight? ive never felt one, ive worn a kev vest before and thats pretty heavy it self, i cant imagin having steel plates in it as well

I thought they were ceramic.

-e- Here's (http://www.pointblankarmor.com/plates_military.asp) a page with a bunch of weights for hard armor plates, but it doesn't say what they're made of. Seem to go from 3.5-10lbs.

[knute]

Krechet, no, it was Generic Soldier...

No Krechet was this cat way back in the day who claimed to have been in Cechnya and told these crazy stories that we later found out he had copied out of a book.

Generic Soldier was (supposedly, anyway) an entirely different person.

[[Political] Slayer]

Generic Soldier claimed that he was a merc in chechnya too, he just didn't tell too many stories about it.

[BAS]

I actually talked to kretchet on ICQ way back in the day. I was only like 16 or 17 at the time so I believed everything he said :o

[gYmBaG]

I thought they were ceramic.

-e- Here's (http://www.pointblankarmor.com/plates_military.asp) a page with a bunch of weights for hard armor plates, but it doesn't say what they're made of. Seem to go from 3.5-10lbs.
yeah i dunno why i said steel, cause i dunno if thats what they make them out of, if anyone knows can they tell me?

[SWATJester_os]

how much do the armor plates weight? ive never felt one, ive worn a kev vest before and thats pretty heavy it self, i cant imagin having steel plates in it as well


they're called SAPI inserts. You wear one in the front, and one in the back.

The entire US Army and USMC (USAF too I think) are equipped with Interceptor Body Armor, or IBA.

http://www.pointblankarmor.com/interceptor.asp
http://www.natick.army.mil/soldier/media/fact/individual/USMC_InterceptorOTV.htm
http://www.olive-drab.com/images/body_armor_interceptor_03.jpg

http://www.olive-drab.com/images/body_armor_interceptor.png

http://www.olive-drab.com/images/body_armor_interceptor_sapi.jpg

In the late 1990s, an Army and Marine Corps team produced the Interceptor Multi-Threat Body Armor System that provided improved protection while weighing about ten pounds less than its predecessor, the Personal Armor Systems, Ground Troops (PASGT) flak vest. The Interceptor system was put into quantity production for troops serving in Afghanistan and Iraq (Iraq photo, left, courtesy Matthew Kotarski).

The Interceptor Multi-Threat Body Armor System is made up of two main modular components: the outer tactical vest (OTV) and the small-arms protective inserts (SAPI). The unisex Kevlar OTV is also equipped with removable throat and groin protectors. With the front and back SAPI ceramic plates inserted, the vest can stop 7.62 mm rounds

Interceptor Body Armor stems from the 1994-vintage 24-pound Ranger Body Armor (RBA) designed by the U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center (Natick, MA) at the request of the 75th Ranger Regiment. The 9-pound RBA vest gives the wearer high quality handgun ballistic and fragmentation protection. With the addition of 7.5-pound aluminum oxide ceramic armor plates placed in the front and back chest pockets, the RBA wearer is further protected from armor piercing rifle ammunition. The success of RBA led to a materials research program to achieve the same performance with less weight. The RBA vests continued in Army inventory through the early phase of the Iraq War, until replaced by Interceptor.

The Interceptor Multi-Threat Body Armor System went into production in 1999 under a five-year contract awarded by U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center to Point Blank Body Armor of Oakland Park, FL.

The new Interceptor body armor is being worn by soldiers and Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army and Marines rushed to get enough body armor into Iraq and Afghanistan by December 2003 for everyone who needed it, as fast as it came off the assembly line. For many Marines, the PASGT flak vest is giving way to the new Interceptor body armor-an effective and highly valued piece of gear in the global war on terrorism. Because the Interceptor body armor was in relative short supply, deploying service members got priority at their points of issue. Accounting for two armor plates for each Marine in the ground combat element, the Marines fielded 94,056 plates for active forces and 39,284 for reserve forces

The Interceptor's inter-changeable components give troops the ability to dress to the level of a particular threat.

By itself, the Interceptor vest insulates a soldier from shrapnel and 9-mm pistol rounds. When the protective Small Arms Protective Inserts (SAPI) are added, the system acts as a ballistic barrier to 7.62-mm rifle ammunition. The PASGT flak vest only offered protection against fragmentation.

Interceptor Body Armor SAPIThe Interceptor outer tactical vest consists of a very fine Kevlar weave that will stop 9mm pistol rounds. Webbing on the front and back of the vest permits attaching such equipment as grenades, walkie-talkies and pistols. The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing, an extremely hard material. It stops, shatters and catches any fragments up to a 7.62 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second. It's harder than Kevlar. The four pound high-technology plates cost approximately $350 each to produce, a considerable cost reduction achieved by Army-industry cooperation.

The vest comes with neck and crotch protection attachments. It will work with all current and anticipated load carrying equipment. With the fasteners along the right side, the vest still protects the front of the body even when open. The vest also has a quick release feature, so if the soldier needs to drop the plates, one tug and they’re gone.

The Interceptor system weighs 16.4 pounds including the insert plates. The outer tactical vest weighs 8.4 pounds and each of the two inserts weighs 4 pounds. The previous PASGT body armor weighed 25.1 pounds (with ballistic upgrades). The Interceptor body armor's lighter weight provides more mobility than the older flak vest, one of the main objectives of the development program that created the Interceptor vest.

The unisex Outer Tactical Vest is made in eight sizes from x-small to xxxx-large. OTV NSNs are not in a single range, examples are 8470-01-497-8599 for x-small and 8470-01-518-5894 for xxxx-large. The SAPI plates for the front and back of the vest are available in five sizes from x-small to x-large. NSNs range from 8470-01-497-8701 x-small to 8470-01-497-8714 x-large with gaps in the series.

In Afghanistan, some soldiers reported the loss of circulation in their arms in situations where they had to wear the Interceptor Body Armor with the ALICE rucksack frame or the current Load Bearing Vest instead of the MOLLE pack for which it was designed. U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center receives such information and uses it to plan improvements or new equipment.

[SinistralRifleman]

Keep in mind the plates are the only areas of the vest that will stop rifle rounds.

The widespread use of armor is changing the way in which we shoot to maximize the effectiveness of the armor. To get the best use out of your armor, you square up on the target presenting the front plate to the threat. Traditional rifle shooting stances where one stands at an angle to the target, do not make the best use of the armor.

Likewise, even if you aren't wearing armor, you want to square up on the target...if you do get shot, it will hopefully be through only one vital organ instead of 3 if you were standing sideways.

Pics from Tactical Response, Sub-machinegun Class:

Squared up on the target to maximize armor coverage:
http://www.cavalryarms.com/training/2005-4-11-13-TRI/subgun/45.jpg

http://www.cavalryarms.com/training/2005-4-11-13-TRI/subgun/74.jpg

[Airborne506]

Keep in mind the plates are the only areas of the vest that will stop rifle rounds.

The widespread use of armor is changing the way in which we shoot to maximize the effectiveness of the armor. To get the best use out of your armor, you square up on the target presenting the front plate to the threat.

Which is why pistol training in the military switched from one handed to two correct?

[SWATJester_os]

It's only recently starting to become that we're trained like that......

[SinistralRifleman]

Which is why pistol training in the military switched from one handed to two correct?

Shooting using both hands is infinitely more stable than using one hand...that change in thinking was made long before the widespread use of body armor.

[Denwad]

USAF has interceptor vests btw

[Toastar]

What can the helmet's protect against, I mean against a rifle round?

[Shadow]

Not even hardly. The PASGT Level IIIA is capable of stopping projectiles travelling at speeds of up to 2,250 feet per second. It's capable of preventing a 9x19mm 115gr FMJ or a .44 Magnum round from perforating the helmet, but it's been said that with the sheer stopping power of the round hitting the helmet would be enough to snap your neck, anyway.

I find that the helmet is probably only good for battlefields that include artillery support, where you'll have chunks of metal flying everywhere, and in most cases, the PASGT will prevent those chunks from cutting a major hole in your head.

[SWATJester_os]

Not even hardly. The PASGT Level IIIA is capable of stopping projectiles travelling at speeds of up to 2,250 feet per second. It's capable of preventing a 9x19mm 115gr FMJ or a .44 Magnum round from perforating the helmet, but it's been said that with the sheer stopping power of the round hitting the helmet would be enough to snap your neck, anyway.

I find that the helmet is probably only good for battlefields that include artillery support, where you'll have chunks of metal flying everywhere, and in most cases, the PASGT will prevent those chunks from cutting a major hole in your head.

problem is the PASGT helmet acts like a funnel directly to the brain for shrapnel from below.

[GrosPoisson]

That reminds me, I was reading in article (in Harper's of all places) that was discussing the trend in injuries caused by IEDs, and it was describing how head trauma is a lot more common because the helmet causes some of the concussive force to be channeled right into the head. They quoted one soldier as saying wearing a helmet with the straps done and having his Humvee hit by an IED "rang his head like a gong."

[gYmBaG]

what level of body armor do you think this guy had on?
http://images.military.com/Shock/0,,SA_050713_SniperShot,00.html

[Shadow]

Looks to me as though he was wearing the standard issue Interceptor armor...level IIIA Soft with the plates, totalling out at Level IV.

Whatever it was, it sure was enough to stop that 7.62x54mm... and that's all that matters...one lucky son of a bitch.

[Ch33zy]

but it's been said that with the sheer stopping power of the round hitting the helmet would be enough to snap your neck, anyway.

We've had that debate before. I think the general outcome was that it's a bullshit claim.

[Shadow]

ch33zy, I DARE you to strap a PASGT on and get someone to shoot you in the head whilst wearing it. Let's see if you survive it.

Mate, a projectile traveling at 650 metres per second hits you in the head. The sheer force of that round hitting your head would be enough to send your head in the same direction the projectile is traveling quickly enough to quite literally break your neck. It is not necessary that you will die from it (ie no severing of the spinal cord). It's simple physics. 650 metres per second is the equivelant of 2340 km/h (1454 mph) - twice the speed of sound. Helmets are really only good for one thing...that is the deflection of shrapnel and ricochet projectiles, where ultimately the amount of energy is depleted from the initial impact is reduced significantly enough to prevent massive trauma.

[knute]

Mate, a projectile traveling at 650 metres per second hits you in the head. The sheer force of that round hitting your head would be enough to send your head in the same direction the projectile is traveling quickly enough to quite literally break your neck. It is not necessary that you will die from it (ie no severing of the spinal cord). It's simple physics. 650 metres per second is the equivelant of 2340 km/h (1454 mph) - twice the speed of sound. Helmets are really only good for one thing...that is the deflection of shrapnel and ricochet projectiles, where ultimately the amount of energy is depleted from the initial impact is reduced significantly enough to prevent massive trauma.

Let's do some simple physics. Take the butt of a rifle, place it against your head, and fire. Newton's Third says that that would be about the same as getting hit with a bullet (that your helmet stops). It would probably hurt like hell, but as far as snapping your neck; I doubt it.

The better question would be whether the helmet would stop a bullet, and the answer is "probably not".

[gYmBaG]

ive heard stories that that has happened, and it didnt go through, but then again i didnt hear about the soldiers health, it said he lived. but im sure it wasnt a high caliber. but then again, im sure if its a long distance, the bullet is sure to lose some velocity after flying through the air for a couple of seconds

[Wallrod]

It's simple physics. 650 metres per second is the equivelant of 2340 km/h (1454 mph) - twice the speed of sound. And simple physics will tell you that a 5 gram lump of copper and lead going twice the speed of sound will hold a lot less energy than something much heavier going the same speed. What's key here is the kinetic energy held and transferred from the bullet to the target, not speed alone. A fully loaded dump truck going at 10mph will hold more energy than a .45 bullet going at 900fps.

[SWATJester_os]

ch33zy, I DARE you to strap a PASGT on and get someone to shoot you in the head whilst wearing it. Let's see if you survive it.

Mate, a projectile traveling at 650 metres per second hits you in the head. The sheer force of that round hitting your head would be enough to send your head in the same direction the projectile is traveling quickly enough to quite literally break your neck. It is not necessary that you will die from it (ie no severing of the spinal cord). It's simple physics. 650 metres per second is the equivelant of 2340 km/h (1454 mph) - twice the speed of sound. Helmets are really only good for one thing...that is the deflection of shrapnel and ricochet projectiles, where ultimately the amount of energy is depleted from the initial impact is reduced significantly enough to prevent massive trauma.

Hi, I've taken a 7.62 god bullet to the kevlar....

[knute]

Hi, I've taken a 7.62 god bullet to the kevlar....

Oh shit, I forgot about that.

I wish we had the thread from the old board where I calculated terminal velocity of a bullet.

[Shadow]

292 foot-lb (132.4 foot-kg) of pressure at 50 yards with a 9x19mm NATO M882. That's like having someone sit on your face at 650 metres a second. The round will flatten on impact producing this amount of kinetic energy, which would result in heavy trauma. Go figure. There are several things here that could happen - cerebral trauma, spinal fractures, facial/cranial fractures etc. This will all lead to serious injury that will completely incapacitate you anyway - and quite possibly turn you in to a vegie. It's not the velocity of the round impacting that's going to cause all the damage - it's the stopping power that'll cause all the trauma.

Serious, anyone who's game to strap on a Kevlar helmet, get someone to shoot them in the helmet with a 124gr 9x19mm - go ahead. Test the theory. My personal belief is you go right on ahead and put a 3kg shitcan on your head and turn yourself into a bullet magnet. I'll stick with my issue boonie and have less weight to worry about, and if I get shot in the head, it's my stupid fault for having it exposed to enemy fire.

[Mr.P]

I think you're all VERY much not giving your spinal cord credit. Yes, a bullet carries a lot of force with it, but so do PLENTY of other things that happen to heads. 2 300 pound NFL linemen collide at a 20+mph closing speed and bash helmets. LOTS of impact force there, and it happens hundreds of times over and over every Sunday. Hell, when I was 8 I fell off the top of a conversion van and nailed my head onto a wooden fence. Hurt like hell, but didn't snap my neck. Your entire body is built like a car suspension to hold and absorb the constant gyrations of that big weight on your shoulders. Your neck can absorb a TON of punishment before it causes your spine to be injured. Beyond that, MOST spinal injuries don't occur from "snapping", they are caused by compression of the spine. So maybe if somebody shot directly down onto you, you could have some issues.

I'm sure there will be and are cases of it doing spinal damage, but I certainly would never go so far as to say it would be the norm. Buddy of mine took a glancing shot from, well, frankly he didn't know because he didn't stick around to find the round, but probably an AK, and walked away none the worse for wear.

[knute]

292 foot-lb (132.4 foot-kg) of pressure at 50 yards with a 9x19mm NATO M882. That's like having someone sit on your face at 650 metres a second. The round will flatten on impact producing this amount of kinetic energy, which would result in heavy trauma. Go figure. There are several things here that could happen - cerebral trauma, spinal fractures, facial/cranial fractures etc. This will all lead to serious injury that will completely incapacitate you anyway - and quite possibly turn you in to a vegie. It's not the velocity of the round impacting that's going to cause all the damage - it's the stopping power that'll cause all the trauma.

Serious, anyone who's game to strap on a Kevlar helmet, get someone to shoot them in the helmet with a 124gr 9x19mm - go ahead. Test the theory. My personal belief is you go right on ahead and put a 3kg shitcan on your head and turn yourself into a bullet magnet. I'll stick with my issue boonie and have less weight to worry about, and if I get shot in the head, it's my stupid fault for having it exposed to enemy fire.


What the bloody hell kind of bastard unit is a ft-kg?

The energy of someone sitting on your face at 650m/s would be E=m*v^2=80*650^2=33.8 million Joules. The momentum would be p=80*650=52000kg*m/s.
The energy of M882 9mm ball ammo is E=0.00725747792 * 385^2 = 1076J. The momentum would be p=0.00725747792 * 385=2.79kg*m/s.
The energy of M2 .50cal ball ammo is E=0.0459424272 * 3050^2 = 427,379J. The momentum would be p=0.0459424272 * 3 050 = 140.12kg*m/s.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but they're nowhere near reality.

[SWATJester_os]

I know people who have been shot in the kevlar directly, and not died nor broken their neck from it.


And go ahead and stick with the boonie.....when you take a shrapnel wound to the temple which slices straight into your brain, or when you get blown off your feet by a concussion from an IED and slam your head into the ground knocking you unconscious, you'll wish you had a kevlar helmet. Only reason to choose a boonie over a kevlar is if you're a recon scout and need to be able to hear better.


Oh, aren't Ft-KG units Newtons?

[knute]

Oh, aren't Ft-KG units Newtons?

A newton is kg*m/s^2. What throws me off is mixing imperial feet with metric kilograms.

[Ch33zy]

If anyone has a rifle that fires 7.62 and lives in northern Cal, I have a PAGSAT helmet sitting here and would love to run some tests.

[Kak]

I was under the impression that California isn't too firearm friendly :eek:

I did see a video of some people shooting kevlar helmets with different types of bullets, 5.56x45 and above seemed like it went through :confused:

[Ch33zy]

It's friendly enough, theres just lots of bullshit to contend with.

[Shadow]

We had a standard issue PASGT strapped to a ballistic maniquin here, used a Browning High Power to shoot, range 25 metres. The round hit that target, and the helmet (that was fully strapped on, blew off backward.
As you can see - I stated above that yes, they have their utility against shrapnel and ricochet projectiles. I would NEVER trust a helmet to take an aimed shot - EVER.

Furthermore - I'm Air Force - not Army. I don't need to worry about IED as much as you do/did, SWAT. Friendly airfields are usually behind friendly lines, and the chance of attack on those airfields will be performed by special forces or the like is more likely than artillery strike or IEDs. The chances of 'taking a shrapnel wound to the temple' is decreased rather significantly.

EDIT: Word change

[knute]

I was under the impression that California isn't too firearm friendly :eek:

I did see a video of some people shooting kevlar helmets with different types of bullets, 5.56x45 and above seemed like it went through :confused:

Uglygun has at least an AR10, some flavor of 50cal rifle, and I think an AR15 too, and he lives in California.

[GundamCL]

I think civilians are not allowed to have "assault rifles" in CA unless it has been neutered in some way (internal magazine, pump action, etc.)

[Mr.P]

We had a standard issue PASGT strapped to a ballistic maniquin here, used a Browning High Power to shoot, range 25 metres. The round hit that target, and the helmet (that was fully strapped on, blew off backward.
As you can see - I stated above that yes, they have their utility against shrapnel and ricochet projectiles. I would NEVER trust a helmet to take an aimed shot - EVER

EDIT: Word change


NO helmet, armor, etc provides 100% protection, hell, tanks and IFVs are getting knocked out on a regular basis for that matter. I garauntee that your head will stand a better chance against the Hi-Power with the helmet then without. Might you still die? Possibly. Get shot without the helmet and if you survive, you better be prepared to have a bunch of news stations around your bed 10 years from now talking about pulling the plug.

[GrosPoisson]

I think civilians are not allowed to have "assault rifles" in CA unless it has been neutered in some way (internal magazine, pump action, etc.)

Neutered, yes, but not quite the way you describe it. The features this state has deemed to make an ordinary semi-auto rifle into teh eval assault weapon of dewm include bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, pistol grips, retractable/collapsible stocks, and grenade launchers (:rolleyes:).

There's also some stuff about barrel length in there, but I'm not too familiar with that.

[Ch33zy]

We had a standard issue PASGT strapped to a ballistic maniquin here, used a Browning High Power to shoot, range 25 metres. The round hit t

I'd still like to see it for myself.

[GoatChomper]

I would NEVER trust a helmet to take an aimed shot - EVER.
An unaimed round has the same foot-poundage as an aimed one.....and I challenge you to find us a verifiable pathology report of someone from the days when standard-issue military rifles chambered fullsize rifle rounds suffering a broken neck from catching a round to the helmet.

[SWATJester_os]

We had a standard issue PASGT strapped to a ballistic maniquin here, used a Browning High Power to shoot, range 25 metres. The round hit that target, and the helmet (that was fully strapped on, blew off backward.
As you can see - I stated above that yes, they have their utility against shrapnel and ricochet projectiles. I would NEVER trust a helmet to take an aimed shot - EVER.

Furthermore - I'm Air Force - not Army. I don't need to worry about IED as much as you do/did, SWAT. Friendly airfields are usually behind friendly lines, and the chance of attack on those airfields will be performed by special forces or the like is more likely than artillery strike or IEDs. The chances of 'taking a shrapnel wound to the temple' is decreased rather significantly.

EDIT: Word change

There are no front lines. Even the USAF is taking casualties in Iraq from mortars/rockets, and IEDs.


When I get my discharge in the next couple weeks, I'll celebrate by putting an m118 round into my kevlar as a test.

[knute]

Neutered, yes, but not quite the way you describe it. The features this state has deemed to make an ordinary semi-auto rifle into teh eval assault weapon of dewm include bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, pistol grips, retractable/collapsible stocks, and grenade launchers (:rolleyes:).

There's also some stuff about barrel length in there, but I'm not too familiar with that.

I think Ugly got his pre-ban, so they're not neutered.

[GrosPoisson]

I think Ugly got his pre-ban, so they're not neutered.

Yeah, I actually used some of his forum pictures around the time the AW Ban was sunsetting to explain why it was stupid to my more liberal friends; it worked, they now think gun control is stupid and a waste of time.

[Shadow]

hahaha nice... M118s are the shit, man. Take piccys!!! :D

[[hk]renegade]

two hands on the pistol is more along the lines of MOUT, but Im to lazy to explian why.