What do you think about Christians?

[KillerChiaPet]

Okay, I'm going to try something new here and see how this turns out...

In the other "Religion" threads I've seen in the Firebox, it just turns into a big flamewar. Some self-righteous, stubborn atheist will butt heads with another equally self-righteous, stubborn Christian and it's just not pretty. Names are called, hellfire and brimstone is preached and it's bad news. So if you have the intention of turning this into a flamewar, please don't.

I've made it no secret, but if you didn't know already, I am a Christian. Now, this thread is not about me telling you about Jesus or trying to convert you or anything like that. To be frank, I'm cool with whatever you believe: that's your deal, and I'm not about to try to impose my code of ethics or beliefs on you... especially over the Internet. So first, I want you guys to know that I love you know matter what you believe; that's why I joined these forums, because when the FA forums went down, I missed the community. You guys make me laugh, and I just love it.

So here's what this is about: I'm trying to get a feel of what "non-believers," or people who are not "Christians" think about those who are. From what I've noticed in our society, there are some huge misconceptions about "Christianity" as a religion and the people that follow it. Identifying oneself as a Christian brings hate from other people, and I think that's because many of us (and by that I mean Christians) have misrepresented what this "religion" is about.

The name "Christian" to me means "Christ-like." And for that meaning, I try to live my life much like Jesus Christ did. He was all about love and acceptance and meeting people where they're at instead of trying to conform them to something else. But to be honest (and I know some of you have seen it), many Christian churches (or just the Christians themselves) today have strayed way far away from that.

So tell me straight up if you are not a Christian: What do you think about Christians? Be honest, but try not to flame too much (although I expect some replies will be heated). I know many people have been hurt by people calling themselves Christians and its those people I want to hear from.

I don't know how much of a response I'll get from this (although I hope it's quite a bit) but I will check this thread often to see what you have to say.

Oh, and my other reason for making this thread is found in the following post:
http://forums.worldatwarmod.com/showpost.php?p=34189&postcount=154

[Evil Superstar]

I think the hate (if any) mostly comes from people people who do try to push their religion onto others imho.

People can be whatever they want as long as they don't want me to join them at all costs.

Now about the "what do you think of christians", as a non practicing roman catholic, I don't have an outsider opinion on it, but I feel that it's basically a religion like any other which boils down to "be nice to each other and others will be nice to you".

[FloppyDisk]

I was raised Catholic but am more of an Agnostic.

I don't mind Christians, whatever floats your boat. I have plenty of Baptist, Episcopalian, Methodist, and Catholic friends etc...

The only Christians that piss me off are the ones that actively seek to tell you all about their faith and how you should believe what they do. Now if you ask about it and somebody throws some evangelical undertones in or whatever I'd say it's fair game, you asked and got your answer.

Also I don't like the whole bigass negative reaction I sometimes get when I tell people I don't really believe the contents of the Bible and whatnot. You get that whole you're a "bad" person because you don't believe in the churches' teachings and whatever, I'd just say fuck it and judge somebody on the basis of their integrity and whatnot and let God sort it out later - but obviously I'm mistaken because the Bible is clearly the unadultered word of the Lord God and I'm going to burn and hell and you shouldn't hang out with me. That sort of shit is what pisses me off, but not all Christians are like that and you have the same shit of the opposite end of the spectrum with some Atheists automatically dismissing people of faith as primitive retards.

[KillerChiaPet]

I think the hate (if any) mostly comes from people people who do try to push their religion onto others imho.
That's what I'm talking about! It's what I hate about so many "religious" people today in our society.

Jesus said the two most important commandments were (paraphrased) "Love God, and love people." I'm not saying evangelism is bad, because Jesus also told us to "make disciples," but slamming religion down someone's throat won't accomplish anything. :mad:

[neko]

I have Christian friends and I get along just fine with them.

[Fearfisch]

Stubborn fools who find happiness in dellusions and pointless ceremonies. [/omgracistban]

Not the most positive opinion, I know, but I still treat anyone the same whatever their religion or race and keep my opinions to myself.

[KillerChiaPet]

Not the most positive opinion, I know
Yeah, but I didn't ask for a positive answer, I asked for honesty. Thank you.

Christians are not a race, so I don't think you have to worry about a racism ban. ;)

[ScAvenger001]

I have no issue with Christianity as an ideal. It's done some very positive things, ranging from soup kitchens and homeless shelters to preserving bastions of civilization during the middle ages.

Christianity as a cult is bad news, and it's done some very negative things, ranging from slavery to mass murder.

Christianity as a religion is annoying, to me. Every time I read a news story about people demanding that their religion be taught in science classes, I lose a little more faith in humanity.

That about covers it.

[mastablasta]

they suck.

Latin America, Mexico, Philipinos and other very religious countries show best what it means for developement as well as corruption and crime.

[Psyche]

Okay, I'm going to try something new here and see how this turns out...

In the other "Religion" threads I've seen in the Firebox, it just turns into a big flamewar. Some self-righteous, stubborn atheist will butt heads with another equally self-righteous, stubborn Christian and it's just not pretty. Names are called, hellfire and brimstone is preached and it's bad news. So if you have the intention of turning this into a flamewar, please don't.

I've made it no secret, but if you didn't know already, I am a Christian. Now, this thread is not about me telling you about Jesus or trying to convert you or anything like that. To be frank, I'm cool with whatever you believe: that's your deal, and I'm not about to try to impose my code of ethics or beliefs on you... especially over the Internet. So first, I want you guys to know that I love you know matter what you believe; that's why I joined these forums, because when the FA forums went down, I missed the community. You guys make me laugh, and I just love it.

So here's what this is about: I'm trying to get a feel of what "non-believers," or people who are not "Christians" think about those who are. From what I've noticed in our society, there are some huge misconceptions about "Christianity" as a religion and the people that follow it. Identifying oneself as a Christian brings hate from other people, and I think that's because many of us (and by that I mean Christians) have misrepresented what this "religion" is about.

The name "Christian" to me means "Christ-like." And for that meaning, I try to live my life much like Jesus Christ did. He was all about love and acceptance and meeting people where they're at instead of trying to conform them to something else. But to be honest (and I know some of you have seen it), many Christian churches (or just the Christians themselves) today have strayed way far away from that.

So tell me straight up if you are not a Christian: What do you think about Christians? Be honest, but try not to flame too much (although I expect some replies will be heated). I know many people have been hurt by people calling themselves Christians and its those people I want to hear from.

I don't know how much of a response I'll get from this (although I hope it's quite a bit) but I will check this thread often to see what you have to say.


in my opinion religion in general sucks. it was nice when it first came out, but nowadays people use it more as a crutch or an excuse "god made me do it" "this is because the will of allah told me so." also, most extremists do not realize that most religions have many similarities, they just give different names to it. like the only difference between the jewish faith and the christian faith is that christians believe that jesus was the messiah and jews don't think the messiah has come yet.....and still throughout history people were persecuted for believing in a "different god" when it was the same damn god..just had a prettier name or whatever.

i'll go with rufus on this one. it's better to have ideas then beliefs. ideas are easily changed, but beliefs start wars

[KillerChiaPet]

in my opinion religion in general sucks. it was nice when it first came out, but nowadays people use it more as a crutch or an excuse "god made me do it" "this is because the will of allah told me so."
I agree, I dislike "religions" too. See, I view Christianity (I hate that word) as less of a religion and more of a relationship; at least, that's how the Bible says it should be. It's not about all the rules and stipulations and if you screw up God's gonna getcha and smack you on the back of the head. It's about a personal relationship with God.

But you're also completely right about people using it as a crutch. The truth of the matter is, God gave us free will and we can't just blame it all on Him when something goes wrong or something bad happens. We screwed up this world, not Him. God never makes us do anything. Oh, and neither does the devil.

mastablasta, can you elaborate some more? "they suck" isn't exactly specific. Why do they suck?

Scav touched on something that I wanna talk more about later on, because I agree with what he said. But one thing I don't agree with is the comment about Creationism being taught in schools. Now while there are the crazy soccer mom Christians that get up in arms about it, I don't think it'd be a bad thing for it to be taught in schools. Recent studies and books (by non-believing writers no less) etc have shown that there is no proof behind the big bang theory either. So either theory requires a certain amount of faith.

Sorry, I'm talking too much, this is about your guys' thoughts. Keep it up guys, thank you for your openness.

[ScAvenger001]

I should point out that "proof" in a scientific context means "what we have just proven is true in all conceivable circumstances." In mathematics, this is easy. If you crunch the numbers properly, you can show that something is always true or else not always true, and since the rules are both arbitrary and man-made, you can be pretty sure that the rules won't change suddenly and leave your proof hanging out to dry. The real universe isn't nearly so neat: Newton can throw around all the apples he wants and all he'll have shown is that in the circumstances that are exactly the same, the apple will behave in the way demonstrated. If the Gravitational Constant of the Universe (tm) suddenly changes, then the apples start behaving differently in spite of all our cleverly calcultated 9.8m/s/s'es. Modern physics can't think of any reasons why that would ever happen and it doesn't seem to have ever happened before, but we can't think of any reasons that it can't happen either. Thus the behavior of gravity, despite all the evidence in its favor, is just a theory. The same applies to the Big Bang: unless someone goes back with a video camera and watches it happen and brings back the tape, there's no proof. Evidence, of course, is another matter. You're correct that there is an element of faith, but it's hardly a baseless conjecture.

Also, why is it the story of Christian creation that's taught in the schools? Suppose I think that a giant space walrus sneezed and the galaxies are what came out. I don't see anyone clamoring for the walrus-snot theory of creation to be taught in schools :p but perhaps that's unreasonable since nobody actually believes it. Yet there are any number of "legitimate" creation tales that nobody ever talks about when they want to change the science curriculum.

[FaKToR]

Can't say I've met too many christians. Met a lot of people who call themselves christians.

[pro kossu]

I've become what you call an anti-theist.

I see religions as a way of pleading with thunder (to quote someone) instead of running for cover or inventing the lightning rod.

[-V-]

My take is, if your a good person, and dont try to shove your faith down anyone's throats, I couldn't care less if you are christian, muslim, jewish, worship a dried pile of scat in your closet, or any thing else I fail to mention.

However, like its been said at least 3 times so far, the thing that gets on my nerves are people who try to shove their faith down everyone's throats whether they want it or not. I also harbor great animosity twords people who are liars and hypocrytes. A rather sharp example would be the KKK, they claim to be all about christianity, but when was the last time that you read in the bible "Thou Shalt Lynch Black People"?

On the creationism stuff: I say I have no beef with it as long as its not taught in science class, since scientific theories are based on supporting evidence. Evolution is just a theory, however there are millions of years of fossil evidence as well as many many experiments that butress this theory. However, any creationism story from any relegion is not something that has any strong evidence supporting it.

[Bone_Vulture]

I think the Bush administration has made me loathe christianity more than anything else. Specifically due to dumb crap like:

Trying to prohibit abortion (not to mention those pharmacists who denied patients with valid prescriptions birth control drugs due to "religious reasons")

Preaching abstinence as a solution against the spreading of venerial diseases, instead of prophylactics, and they're doing this in FUCKING AFRICA.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7371950?pageid=rs.Politics&pageregion=single1&rnd=1120336715250&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1040

Damn, that article still pisses me off.

Oh yeah, and "creationism". For the love of Christ, literally.

[Chris R]

I'm Catholic, so, yeah, by technicality, I'm part of a subsect of Christanity, but, some of my beliefs differ greatly than that of mainstreem Catholics or Christains. The only problem I have is when, and both religions do this, one person is convinced they are right, that they are closer to God than everyone else (even if they got "saved' 2 days earlier) and that they suddenly have the right to downplay everyone else's beliefs. Especially when a mainstream Christain informs me that I'm wrong because Catholics worship Mary (which is wrong, in any case).

Somewhere along the line God did say to preach for Him, much like Jesus did, and I do try, if the peson wants to listen. I don't believe that when God says to spread his word, that he means to make everyone else's life hell. If they don't want to listen to another's beliefs, they shouldn't have to and the other person should just shut it and not press it.

So I guess from an inside view, I do respect people of all faiths, but just get really annoyed by those who think they are self righteous and have the right to constantly proclaim their faith and beliefs, regardless of who it bothers. If people don't want to hear it, then they don't want to, and shoving faith down their throats won't get them saved, it'll more than likely just give them more reason to dislike people of that faith. Not that I could blame them.

[M123]

I've got little problem with christians. Some people find a lot of comfort in religion.

[vecdran]

I'm a Christian. No, I don't go to church, I came to realize it was worthless and didn't give me any advice to help improve my life. I hate bible-thumpers as much as the next atheist.

I'm a "bad" Christian by many standards, I swear, drink a little, don't go to church, watch violent movies, listen to "vulgar" music, etc. etc. As far as I'm concerned, you don't need to be all utterly consumed about "Doing everything for Jesus!" like some people are. I keep myself on the right side of the law, I try to be a decent person, I believe in God, why must I jump through 9 million extra hoops to get to heaven? Sorry, doesnt' say that anywhere in the bible.

As you can tell I'm very, very anti-"hardcore christian". I was actually in what I'd call a Christian cult for about 7 years of my early life, and that helped me realize how religion can attract some real nutcases.

I don't care if you are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, Wiccan, freaking rock worshipper, just don't go around shoving your theology down my throat, or if you do, be discrete and mature about it. That's my opinion.

[KillerChiaPet]

I'm a "bad" Christian by many standards, I swear, drink a little, don't go to church, watch violent movies, listen to "vulgar" music, etc. etc. As far as I'm concerned, you don't need to be all utterly consumed about "Doing everything for Jesus!" like some people are. I keep myself on the right side of the law, I try to be a decent person, I believe in God, why must I jump through 9 million extra hoops to get to heaven? Sorry, doesnt' say that anywhere in the bible.
Galatians 2:8-9 -- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

That is why Jesus butted heads with the Pharisees so much; they relied so much on following the law that they forgot its purpose. Not that I condone underage drinking, and I do think it is important to have fellowship with other Christians (whether that be in a church or otherwise), but I watched violent movies and listen to "vulgar" music too. The most important thing is a faith, belief, and following after Jesus.

Can't say I've met too many christians. Met a lot of people who call themselves christians.
That's so true, it's pathetic. And it's because of that, that I think so many people have this animosity for Christians. Because so many Christians have lost sight of what it means to be "Christ-like." Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, etc. All people who were condemned by society, He was with; but too many Christians today shun these people and push them away. I'm sorry for that.


Lets keep the Evolution vs Creationism outta this thread too; if you want we can start another one.

[ville]

I'm an atheist but I have no problems with Christians. Only people that succeeds to piss me off are Jehovas when they knock on my door in the morning when I'm enjoying my coffee with a cupcake :mad: So to clarify that, I'm fine with believers as long as they don't try to stuff their ideals into my head.

[Toastar]

You have cupcakes? Sonofa....

--
Anyways, I think that organized religions are man made and just a way for people to cope with stuff they didn't understand.
I mean, millions of people believed in the Norse gods (Thunder is Thor because we pissed him off, lets kill some people but now we know its the rapid heating and cooling of the air near the lightning channel causes a shockwave)
Same with the druids and the Egyptians.

I don't see how people can put so much faith into something that is just told to them that it's true. Sure, Hitler said that killing jews was right, doesn't make it true.

If anyone said that they were the son of god today they'd be put into a nut house. Back then they were killed but I dont get how so many people put so much faith into a book written 500 years after the fact (The Bible) when you can't play broken telephone with 20 people with a simple sentence and get it right most of the time.

What makes one religion better than another? How would you know if you're worshipping the "wrong" god or following the wrong messenger... in that fact, how do you know if its even the real messenger if it happened not in our time.

[kreket]

I'm not sure what to say. Sometimes organised religion takes on a feeling much like totalitarian societies, one branch of leadership selecting what the rest should believe. Christians who are fanatically convinced they are on the right path tend to be a bit creepy. When you loose the ability to seriously consider if you could be wrong you also loose the ability to consider your actions.

It is more of an illness connected to any faith or system of belief (Adam Smith's and Karl Marx' writings have both been acclaimed by hot-headed idiots to be 100% true and mutually excluding - despite both being attempts to logically explain society in some way and pretty much very Beta version). Lack of critical thinking can happen to just anyone. Pretty much the whole message of the new testament, isn't it? Don't listen to laws, just be at peace and love each other.

[Agent Law]

I have no problems with Christians as long as they don't bother me about it. At least that's my tolerance level at the moment. I don't like it when some try to introduce religion into the school system. I also really do not like those Jehovah's Witnesses coming to my door and saying their religion is the only true blah-blah-blah. Extremism is, too, very bad, mmkay?

And those people who are so full of hate and ignorance, yet claim to be Christian are annoying.

[GoatChomper]

Latin America, Mexico, Philipinos and other very religious countries show best what it means for developement as well as corruption and crime.
Piffle. The Soviets and Saudis could give those neophytes lessons in REAL corruption.

[Moe_Rahn]

What do I think about Christianity?

I think it's a wonderful idea.

[ScAvenger001]

Piffle. The Soviets and Saudis could give those neophytes lessons in REAL corruption.
Just because they're not as good at it doesn't mean it's not corrupt and criminal.

[KillerChiaPet]

I wouldn't say I am a Christian, but I wouldn't say that I am not. I'm somewhere, lost in the middle of it, with the new views on life and spirituality that I've found and agree with... and most if not all of Jesus' teachings fall in line with that, however, I personally, think that the rest of the Bible, that is not the words of Christ.... is post-Christ bullshit conspired by those who first officially created the church after his death, and it was again re-written by the Romans later down in the road.
I suggest you read a book called The Case for Christ. It's written by Lee Strobel, a journalist, about how he set out to prove that the Bible was false and that Jesus was not the Messiah. He talks to like 13 of America's leading experts in different fields ranging from archaeology, psychology, history, etc. He discovers some very, very interesting facts about how reliable the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) are, and also that there is no chance the Romans re-wrote any of it. Remember, he set out to prove it was all false, so keep an open mind about it.

If you have any questions, or wanna talk any more about this, PM me.

[ScAvenger001]

I don't think it's likely that the Romans rewrote much if any of the gospels, but there were huge conventions of Christian clergy held to decide what would and would not be in them.

[Hunter-Killer]

Identifying oneself as a Christian brings hate from other people, and I think that's because many of us (and by that I mean Christians) have misrepresented what this "religion" is about.

Really? Try to say you're "not christian" in front of "christians" and then talk about prejudice, hate and etc. Most "christians" think "non christians" (atheist or not) are satanic, or worse, but always scum in their eyes. Do I need to say more? :rolleyes:

[Chris R]

Really? Try to say you're "not christian" in front of "christians" and then talk about prejudice, hate and etc. Most "christians" think "non christians" (atheist or not) are satanic, or worse, but always scum in their eyes. Do I need to say more? :rolleyes:
I wouldn't say most. Yeah, there are those who claim to be Christains yet don't live up to that name and try to antagonize others, and they are quite annoying, but most of us aren't like that.

[Hunter-Killer]

Just search the 'net for religious discrimination and you'll see. Maybe where you live it isn't like that, but in other parts of the world it is.

Most organized religions tend to teach that their beliefs alone are true, and that other religions are, to various degrees, wrong. Some even teach that other religions are Satanic in nature. These beliefs can lead to prejudice against other faith groups, which can degenerate into violence and oppression.
- from "PREJUDICE OF AMERICANS TOWARDS THOSE OF OTHER FAITHS" (http://www.religioustolerance.org/amer_intol.htm)

Just an example. I recently did an essay about religious discrimination and that was the consensus. The Bible is full of religious prejudice and discrimination towards other faiths/religions, etc.

[Chris R]

Just search the 'net for religious discrimination and you'll see. Maybe where you live it isn't like that, but in other parts of the world it is.


- from "PREJUDICE OF AMERICANS TOWARDS THOSE OF OTHER FAITHS" (http://www.religioustolerance.org/amer_intol.htm)

Just an example. I recently did an essay about religious discrimination and that was the consensus. The Bible is full of religious prejudice and discrimination towards other faiths/religions, etc.
Yes, I agree with you there, but not everyone takes that literally. Yes, you still do get those who take the entire bible literally, and who are very narrow minded (ie. Phelps from the Westborrow Bapist Church), but many people have the common sense to not take all that to heart and to accept other people.

[Hunter-Killer]

But thing is, over here (also in Spain and Italy AFAIK) Christians in general tend to be very conservative. Although younger people aren't that much. It really depends.

[knute]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints scares me.

[KillerChiaPet]

I don't think it's likely that the Romans rewrote much if any of the gospels, but there were huge conventions of Christian clergy held to decide what would and would not be in them.
If you're talking about the Jesus Convention, those men and their conclusions have been overwhelmingly proved to be completely unfounded and ridiculous. And once again, in Strobel's book, he does a lot of research into the reliability of the Gospels and whether or not the Gospels we have today are true to what was written back then.


Really? Try to say you're "not christian" in front of "christians" and then talk about prejudice, hate and etc. Most "christians" think "non christians" (atheist or not) are satanic, or worse, but always scum in their eyes. Do I need to say more?
You know what? The sad state of this world is that nearly everybody has prejudice towards someone/something. I'm sorry if Christians have showed you hate for not being a Christian, that's not right of them. But neither is it right to generalize a whole religion based on a few experiences.

I mean come on, radical Muslims slaughter people who disagree with them. Indonesia and communist China are two places of unadulterated persecution of Christians. You could pull examples from all over the world to prove any point about anybody hating anyone else. This is a fallen world.

And for the record, you are not scum in my eyes.

The Bible is full of religious prejudice and discrimination towards other faiths/religions, etc.
Please elaborate. If you're talking about how Jesus came to earth and died for every single person here and then says "I am the ONLY way..." Well, if that's your idea of discrimination then I don't have much to say to it. Or are you talking about something different?


Yes, you still do get those who take the entire bible literally, and who are very narrow minded
I just want to warn you not to pass off anything that is questionable in our human minds as fanciful or hyperbole. The Bible is full of miracles and things that cannot be understood with earthly understanding. That said, there still is figurative stuff in there as well. Much of the Old Testament is poetry, but that doesn't mean it's not true. Just be careful what you deem as literal and what is not.

[ScAvenger001]

If you're talking about the Jesus Convention, those men and their conclusions have been overwhelmingly proved to be completely unfounded and ridiculous. And once again, in Strobel's book, he does a lot of research into the reliability of the Gospels and whether or not the Gospels we have today are true to what was written back then.

I was talking primarily about the Council of Nicea.

[Chris R]

I just want to warn you not to pass off anything that is questionable in our human minds as fanciful or hyperbole. The Bible is full of miracles and things that cannot be understood with earthly understanding. That said, there still is figurative stuff in there as well. Much of the Old Testament is poetry, but that doesn't mean it's not true. Just be careful what you deem as literal and what is not.
I agree, and I don't. But I don't believe that everything within the bible should be taken literally, then again, that's my beliefs. I guess we'll all find out sooner or later.

But thing is, over here (also in Spain and Italy AFAIK) Christians in general tend to be very conservative. Although younger people aren't that much. It really depends.

It does depend, in some areas, Christains are very nice, in others, you find a large amount of that population to be the "I'm right, you're wrong, there is no middle" type. Around here, we have a couple of the latter, so I would say that my perception might be a bit skewed, then again, from living all over the country, I've met many, and I've had little problems. I've also been told, however, that Catholics worship Mary and are still evil and we want everyone to go to hell, so I've had my share of bad experiences with the mainstream, but that it doesn't account for all. Same with all the major belief systems and religions.

[KillerChiaPet]

I was talking primarily about the Council of Nicea.
Yeah, but the Council of Nicaea made conclusions that back what the Bible says about God and Jesus.... :confused: And they didn't take anything out or change any doctrine... Here, look:

(talking about early Christians)
"The most important controversy concerned how people viewed the relationship between God and Christ. Arius (A.D. 250-336), a Greek priest in Alexandria, led one faction; he denied the complete divinity of Christ, one of the basic tenets of the church. To Arius, Christ was more than man but less than God; the Father and the Son did not possess the same nature, or essence. Arius said that there was no permanent union between God and Christ; the Father alone is eternal and truly God.

"The Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325), the first assembly, or ecumenical council, of bishops from all parts of the Roman world, was called to settle the controversy. The council condemned Arius and ruled that God and Christ were of the same substance, coequal and coeternal. The position adopted at Nicaea became the basis of the Nicene Creed, which remains the official doctrine of the church." (emphasis added)
Source: "Western Civilization: Ideas, Politics & Society Seventh Edition" (a secular source mind you)


But I don't believe that everything within the bible should be taken literally, then again, that's my beliefs.
That is my belief as well. Sorry I didn't explain myself well enough, that might have seemed like an attack on you or your doctrine or something. That wasn't my intent. Most of Revelation is figurative as far as I'm concerned. The things John saw were miraculous, supernatural, and beyond words: he put it into the best description his tiny, human mind could handle. But I HIGHLY doubt it's exactly literal.

-e- Fixed typos.

[Klif]

"I'm a Christian, and fuck you if you don't like it."Suppose I think that a giant space walrus sneezed and the galaxies are what came out.OMFG HELLO CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY!I'm a "bad" Christian by many standards, I swear, drink a little, don't go to church, watch violent movies, listen to "vulgar" music, etc. etc. ... why must I jump through 9 million extra hoops to get to heaven? Sorry, doesnt' say that anywhere in the bible.Some Christians believe saying the words "Fuck" and "Shit" will get you a ticket to Hell. Magic words that send you to hell? Sounds like superstition to me! Hey, wait! Isn't -that- against Jesus' teachings? Wow, those people better get their act together. They're screwed one way, they're screwed the other!

The "Standards" are retarded. Heaven (to Christians. To you and I, Vec) equals belief that Jesus is God's son, and he was raised from the dead, etc, etc, you know the story. Nothing more. Nothing less.I don't think it's likely that the Romans rewrote much if any of the gospels, but there were huge conventions of Christian clergy held to decide what would and would not be in them.for the record (and unless you know something I don't), they didn't leave out and put in specific words or phrases. They elected specific books that did or did not fit in with the theme of the "Bible", and said they'd be included. Wikipedia or Google for the biblical "Canon" for more info.

[Hunter-Killer]

I mean come on, radical Muslims slaughter people who disagree with them. Indonesia and communist China are two places of unadulterated persecution of Christians. You could pull examples from all over the world to prove any point about anybody hating anyone else. This is a fallen world.

I was talking about how people are automatically "evil" and "son of Satan" and "immoral" etc, just because they're atheist or whatever. Makes me mad.

Please elaborate. If you're talking about how Jesus came to earth and died for every single person here and then says "I am the ONLY way..." Well, if that's your idea of discrimination then I don't have much to say to it. Or are you talking about something different?

I just want to warn you not to pass off anything that is questionable in our human minds as fanciful or hyperbole. The Bible is full of miracles and things that cannot be understood with earthly understanding. That said, there still is figurative stuff in there as well. Much of the Old Testament is poetry, but that doesn't mean it's not true. Just be careful what you deem as literal and what is not.

I was "quoting" some texts. See below...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

It does depend, in some areas, Christains are very nice, in others, you find a large amount of that population to be the "I'm right, you're wrong, there is no middle" type. Around here, we have a couple of the latter, so I would say that my perception might be a bit skewed, then again, from living all over the country, I've met many, and I've had little problems. I've also been told, however, that Catholics worship Mary and are still evil and we want everyone to go to hell, so I've had my share of bad experiences with the mainstream, but that it doesn't account for all. Same with all the major belief systems and religions.

From the site I showed above:
If religious groups were to lay greater stress on the Ethic of Reciprocity contained within their religious texts, then religious prejudice should decrease markedly. Churches could include such secular documents as the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the American Bill of Rights, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, etc. in their tolerance classes. Without such a pro-active program, some of their followers may fall back on some of the intolerant passages in their own religious texts for guidance.

(I don't know about that last part though :confused: )

[Chris R]

If religious groups were to lay greater stress on the Ethic of Reciprocity contained within their religious texts, then religious prejudice should decrease markedly. Churches could include such secular documents as the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the American Bill of Rights, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, etc. in their tolerance classes. Without such a pro-active program, some of their followers may fall back on some of the intolerant passages in their own religious texts for guidance.

If the priest/preacher at your church is a strong advocate of tolerance and live and let live, then, you might find that a lot of the people at that church follow the same standard. Or you might find that one or most of the local priests claims that "It's my way or hell", and then you'll find a lot more that just don't touch on the issue of tolerance except for every once in awhile when it becomes very relevant, such as a major world event. So, there are some places that do have a pretty active "program", per say, for teaching tolerance. Others no. It depends on the local church leadership. I should of said this earlier, but didn't really think about that aspect until your quote.


That is my belief as well. Sorry I didn't explain myself well enough, that might have seemed like an attack on you or your doctrine or something. That wasn't my intent. Most of Revelation is figurative as far as I'm concerned. The things John saw were miraculous, supernatural, and beyond words: he put it into the best description his tiny, human mind could handle. But I HIGHLY doubt it's exactly literal.

I agree, and it's fine, sorry if mine wasn't explained enough as well. I kind of have the same perception with the book of Job, in that, God wouldn't really do that to someone, but it was put in as a parable of "Don't condem God everytime your life takes a bad turn"

[mg23]

It's nice to see people don't hate us for loving Jesus. ;o

[Violin]

Religions weird. Make your on destiny kthx.

[mg23]

Religions weird. Make your on destiny kthx.
Isn't free will great?

[Violin]

Isn't free will great?

No. Bondage for everyone.


And Slimjims to the beleivers of Randy Savage.

[Toastar]

Can someone explain to me how they "know" their religion is the correct one?

I mean, it's pretty much what you're taught as you grow up no?

Most people in a muslim country and are brought up muslim are going to be muslim or denounce their faith if they don't agree with it.... but I think that same person would believe christianity was the right religion if they were born in a christian country, or Jewish if born in Israel

[Violin]

Brainwash is the answer.

[M123]

Religion is all a bunch of crap, which falls apart in the face of logic. People can still gain benefits from religion.

[Hunter-Killer]

/me puts on his asbestos suit

Religion is a Crutch for the Weak-Minded

Discuss! :cool:

[Violin]

Originally Posted by Governor Jesse Ventura
Religion is a Crutch for the Weak-Minded

agreed

[-V-]

On the toppic of that comment: My take is it highly depends from the person. Some people who see the ideas presented in religion to be in agreement with their own personal beliefs (love thy neighbor, thou shalt not steal, keep thy religion to thyself, etc.) would not really use religion as a crutch. More as a/an phylosophy that is in agreement with their own belief. Kind of the "Hmm, that's an interesting take on this, maybey I should try to not do that, or maybey not."

However, people who eat spoonfed oppinions like Cheerios and have little time nor interest for internal retrospect may come to rely on religion or anything/one else that freely gives out oppions whether they are asked for or not to give their lives the meaning that they cannot find for themselves.

[KillerChiaPet]

"I'm a Christian, and fuck you if you don't like it."
Ummmm, how about you keep that out of my thread? :( It's that attitude that makes so many people dislike Christians.


I was talking about how people are automatically "evil" and "son of Satan" and "immoral" etc, just because they're atheist or whatever. Makes me mad.
That makes me mad too. It's a complete opposite representation of what Jesus preached. There's no excuse for any Christian to treat any non-believer like that. I'm sorry.



I was "quoting" some texts. See below...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm
Let me see if I can shed some light on why these are not valid examples of "religious intolerance."

The Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth, and all living things, and man, etc, et al. God created Adam to cultivate the earth, name the animals, to prosper and care for the garden of Eden. Adam walked with God and from the teachings of Jesus we find that God views us as His friends. But along with His commands of what to do, God also gave Adam and Eve the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; and with that command, He also gave them the free will to choose what they wanted.

But Adam and Eve screwed up. They disobeyed God and turned their backs on Him, hiding from Him and breaking His heart. This started a downward spiral of sin that basically completely separated mankind from its Creator due to their self-indulgence. It got so bad that God sent His Son to come to earth in human form to offer Himself as the ultimate, eternal sacrifice for the sins of man. Jesus endured the most horrific, painful torture and death the Romans could muster and He did it willingly to save us from ourselves because He LOVES US.

Now tell me how that is "intolerance." Tell me how God does not have the right to demand our respect and our love and our worship? All He's ever done is try to get close to us, to have a personal relationship with us! Christianity is the only "religion" where the deity WANTS a relationship and contact with humans.

And the examples of Israel are completely unfounded as well. God brought the Jews out of Egypt, protected them from Pharaoh, did great miracles to save them, He fed them and gave them water in the desert, He guided them with a pillar of smoke by day and fire by night, and He brought them to a land He promised them. When they got to Canaan, the people complained and said they couldn't take the land, but God supernaturally helped them win their battles and protected them from their enemies. So where do you come off saying that His wanting their love and worship is intolerance of other religions? The other religions never did anything for the Jews like God did! Of course He wants our undivided love!
[/rant]

And just to show you how ridiculous your source is, allow me to quote something from it: "This laid the groundwork for millennia of Christian persecution of Jews and greatly facilitated the Nazi Holocaust of the mid 20th century."
Now THAT is completely ridiculous!!! :eek: Hitler was not even a Christian! And he didn't slaughter Jews because they were not Christians, he slaughtered them because they were not of the Aryan race. But beside that, he slaughtered gypsies and homosexuals too! He was a nut-case! And to say that "Christian intolerance of other religions" facilitated the Nazi Holocaust completely discredits that guy's entire argument in my opinon. He's reaching.


Can someone explain to me how they "know" their religion is the correct one?

I mean, it's pretty much what you're taught as you grow up no?
Honestly, I'm sure for some people that would be correct. They grow up a certain way and never examine it for themselves and just say they believe it their whole life. But those people are the ones, I find, who don't really practice what they "believe."

How do I know my "religion" is correct? Well, it does take a certain amount of faith. However, I have full confidence in my God and my Savior. I did, in fact, grow up in a Christian home, but I got to a point when I was about 14 when I realized that I didn't know God. I had just become indoctrinated into it. I realized I had no clue WHY I believed it. So I stopped going to church for a couple weeks and I examined my beliefs and my religion and spent time in prayer. And as I examined my life, I realized all the things God has done in and around me. He is active today in peoples' lives. I read stories from all over the world about miraculous things done in the name of God. But none of that means more to me than what He's done in MY life. He changed me and made me a new creation. I pray to Him, and I know He hears me. And as weird as it may sound, I feel Him.

In reality, you can't prove Christianity is true. There is overwhelming evidence that supports the Bible as being accurate and the Bible claims to be truth. All the archaelogical evidence and what not helps support my beliefs in the Bible and in God, but the most powerful thing to me is changed lives. I mean, look at the disciples of Jesus. All 11 of them (not counting Judas of course) following the crucifixion went into hiding and were scared to death. They thought their Messiah was dead and everything they believed when following after Him was wrong. None of them even had the balls to come out into public and Peter denied Jesus 3 times, saying he didn't even KNOW Jesus. Yet after the Resurrection, ALL of them fervently went out and preached the Gospel ("good news"). And every single one of them suffered horrible persecution, and all but John were martyred. Now why would they make such a radical change if they didn't see the risen Jesus Christ?


Religion is a Crutch for the Weak-Minded
I disagree. I will use myself as an example. I do not have a weak mind. I am very intelligent, have always done well in school and gotten good grades. Whoopdi-do! But I have also been told by countless peers and also adults that I am very wise too. People come to me to ask advice and my friends seek counsel of me. When somebody tells me something, like in a sermon, I don't just believe it and take it as truth. I mull it over, examine it, study it, see if Scriptures back it up, and THEN I will agree with it. But I don't say these things to pat myself on the back but to show that I am not weak-minded. Lee Strobel would be another great example, Joshua McDowell, C.S. Lewis, the list goes on.

But as far as using Christianity, or religion, as a crutch? No. I've examined the Big Bang Theory and evolution. And I don't believe in God because the other stuff is too hard to understand. It just doesn't make any sense! How can complete order come from chaos (a cosmological explosion). I'll concede to horizontal evolution (which I see as adaptation), but vertical evolution (that is, species changing physical structure, etc) is way too far-fetched! How did life come from non-life? And how did we come from bacteria or whatever the "primordial ooze" the science textbooks describe as our origin?

I don't use Christianity as a crutch. In fact, it'd be much easier to not be a Christian. I have suffered persecution (simple stuff like people making fun of me, I haven't been tortured or anything like people in Indonesia, etc) because I am a Christian. And God has called me to a higher level of morality. I abstain from sex and underage drinking and drugs because I believe that God wants me to be holy so I can be closer to Him. It'd be much easier to just partake of these things when our society says that it's right. But Christianity is not all about rules and commandments, it's much more than that.


Sorry for the huge, long post. I didn't mean to turn this into a full-fledged religious debate. And I'd still be interested to hear what other people have to say about Christians. I do have a point I am getting too once I get enough responses... :D

[lucid]

If you look at history of religion in general, you'll see that ideas have been shared between different cultures and they have changed immensely through time. It's no coincidence that the popular image of the Christian God is that of Zeus, it had to be otherwise it would never have taken off in the Roman/Byzantine empire the way it did. Likewise, Muhammed was a Jew, it ammuses me so that Islam and Judaism have clashed so much when they have such a common origin. It is the fact that Religion is everchanging, yet each religion claims to be the truth that made me realise that there probably isn't a right truth. This is quite a nihilistic conclusion to come to and it did get me a bit depressed at first but then I realised that we don't need religion to give us value or truth, we can make our own values. Thus I don't need Christianity and I'm better off without it.

[GrosPoisson]

So tell me straight up if you are not a Christian: What do you think about Christians?

My view is pretty simple and can be summed up as "Faith is good, but only when paired with an open mind." I think a lot of Christians make the mistake of letting the higher ups think for them instead of doing the "heretical" thing and coming to their own conclusions. God have us free will for a reason, right? Doctrine is something that politics are based on, but I think is a mistake to apply to something so intensely personal as religion.

I'm not Christian myself, but I'll agree with you that science doesn't explain everything, and if there's an organizing principle out there somewhere it wouldn't be too much of a shock. Whether it's called God, Jehovah, Allah, or whatever is not important to me. It's the idea that there is a purpose that I find important.

I do think Christianity does catch an unnecessary amount of shit. It's not really the religion's fault, it's just that there are so many vocal assholes like Falwell out there. Every time that man opens his mouth, it's like he sets back your entire religion a few decades from reconciling with everyone else. Then you've got your "Religion caused religious violence like in the Crusades, therefore it is evil" types who do not accept religion at all and oppose its very existence. They're a bit crazy themselves sometimes.

However, when Christians start talking about the "secular war on Christianity" or some stuff like that, I stop paying attention. Mainly because the past forty-three presidents were Christian, and the fact that I don't believe the secular types could ever come to close to weakening the religion any. Look at France, super secular, still a very Catholic nation.

Besides all that though, I think Christianity is a very well-meaning religion, the main issue is that there's too many people calling themselves Christian who don't live according to its principles.

[Hunter-Killer]

Both competent men, who do you think the people would vote for president?

a) A homosexual
b) An atheist

:rolleyes:

[GrosPoisson]

Great. Way to make my head hurt.

[Hunter-Killer]

I give you a hint: he's quite... happy ;)

[KillerChiaPet]

Mainly because the past forty-three presidents were Christian
I would put quotes around that. The past forty-three presidents are "Christian." Maybe they were raised Christian or something, but many of them were not Christians based on the definition of "Christ-like." I mean, look at Bill Clinton. Need I say more? It's a horrible disgrace to all of us for him to call himself a Christian! For some reason, it's still popular for politicians to be Christian. :confused:

Look at France, super secular, still a very Catholic nation.
Yeah, but I recently read a statistic saying only 1% of citizens of Western Europe still attend church and practice the "religion" they say they believe. For some reason, Europe has died spiritually as of late. And like I said, I don't think the fact that somebody calls themselves a Christian, makes them a Christian. It's about more than just believing. Heck, the devil believes in God and Jesus too.

Besides all that though, I think Christianity is a very well-meaning religion, the main issue is that there's too many people calling themselves Christian who don't live according to its principles.
I completely agree with you.

[Violin]

why in the hell would you want to live by ANOTHER set of rules?

[KillerChiaPet]

It's not as bad as you may think. And in reality, all of those things can be really bad for you. You could get STDs from sex, alcohol poisoning from drinking excessively, and numerous things from drugs. But that's not why I don't do them. I don't do them because they really don't fill any void in my life.

And it's not like I don't have fun. I think a lot of people think Christianity is just about following a set of rules and that we're all stuck-up, prude, conservative people who don't do anything fun. That's just not the case.

[Violin]

Yeah. I do think christians are conservative to the point of fucking annoying. I got this friend whos christian, wont even touch Diablo1 and 2. Because hes says its satanic and the devil blah blah blah. Theres nothing wrong with sex if its with the right person, and you know your going to stay with that person, or build a great relationship. I never tried drinking before or do any drugs.

almost every christian ive met in real life, was a huge stuck up conservative. The few that werent like that i dont really call christians. Because they drink, and do other un-christian things from what ive been told werent allowed.

I dont care about religion usually. And i give people a chance to present themselves. And its always the same way with christains. Stuck up, conservative. And sometimes even FORCE their religion onto me.

I remember one time i was talking about some weird religion, i think it was hindu (something about praying to a dead god). I was debating it, and the dude i was talking to was christian. He cut me down and said "Baptist is the only way" blah blah blah. "Every Religion is wrong." I asked him how he knew his religion was the right one by facts. All he said was he has faith.

LAWL FAITH.


Seriously. Are there NO FACTS that there is a right religion? Is all this FAITH BOUND? If so, then it seems kind of foolish to involve yourself in something so....supersticous....

[ScAvenger001]

And just to show you how ridiculous your source is, allow me to quote something from it: "This laid the groundwork for millennia of Christian persecution of Jews and greatly facilitated the Nazi Holocaust of the mid 20th century."
Now THAT is completely ridiculous!!! :eek: Hitler was not even a Christian! And he didn't slaughter Jews because they were not Christians, he slaughtered them because they were not of the Aryan race. But beside that, he slaughtered gypsies and homosexuals too! He was a nut-case! And to say that "Christian intolerance of other religions" facilitated the Nazi Holocaust completely discredits that guy's entire argument in my opinon. He's reaching.
Logical flaw: because the man who was the driving force of this atrocity was not himself Christian, it was in no way expedited by prior "Christian" influences. There were many such prior influences. I did a google search on "jewish persecution", and the only two links I saw on the front page that didn't have a looooong list of pre-Nazi unpleasantness directed towards Jews (including several papal orders) were a site specifically dedicated to the holocaust era and an anti-semitist site claiming that all of the other pages were zionist propaganda.

[Klif]

Ummmm, how about you keep that out of my thread? :( It's that attitude that makes so many people dislike Christians.
easy, easy. take a deep breath. it's a quote -- and I like it.

[puke o'hara]

Maybe they were raised Christian or something, but many of them were not Christians based on the definition of "Christ-like."One having to be Chirst-like to be a Christian sounds somewhat ... curious.
Yeah, but I recently read a statistic saying only 1% of citizens of Western Europe still attend church and practice the "religion" they say they believe.One hardly has to go to chruch to practice his religion.For some reason, Europe has died spiritually as of late.A nice generalization there.And like I said, I don't think the fact that somebody calls themselves a Christian, makes them a Christian. It's about more than just believing. Heck, the devil believes in God and Jesus too.Indeed, but those two things have nothing to do with each other.Logical flaw: because the man who was the driving force of this atrocity was not himself Christian, it was in no way expedited by prior "Christian" influences. There were many such prior influences. I did a google search on "jewish persecution", and the only two links I saw on the front page that didn't have a looooong list of pre-Nazi unpleasantness directed towards Jews (including several papal orders) were a site specifically dedicated to the holocaust era and an anti-semitist site claiming that all of the other pages were zionist propaganda.Indeed. The Holocaust didn't come out of thin air and a few somewhat barmy fellows.

[KillerChiaPet]

One having to be Chirst-like to be a Christian sounds somewhat ... curious.
Unfortunately that's not the case. People don't have to be Christ-like to be Christian. But they should. To say you're a Christian and still live constantly in sin shows a bad example for other Christians, God, and Christ himself. It misrepresents what God is about.

One hardly has to go to chruch to practice his religion.
I know, and that's why I separated the two instead of combining them as one. However, the Bible does stress the importance of fellowship with other believers and constant spiritual growth. The fact is, most people accomplish those things through church, although it's not the only way.

A nice generalization there.
I didn't say it wasn't a generalization. But if only 1% of Europeans still practice religion or attend church, I'd say it's a pretty accurate generalization of the spirituality of the region.

Indeed, but those two things have nothing to do with each other.
Hardly. What I was saying is that Satan believes in God and Christ, but that doesn't make him a Christian. The fact is, Christianity (as taken from the Gospel) requires more than just belief. Jesus said, "Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me." But too many Christians, especially in America, are too apathetic, complacent, and lazy to live what they say they believe. And they think their "faith" is enough. Jesus is not a "Get out of hell free card." You don't just "say the prayer" and go back to living your life in sin. Christianity is about spiritual transformation.

[`tek]

Bush and his neo-conservative buddies are indeed giving christianity a bad name by turning the war in Iraq into a holy war; Muslims vs. Christians. They are both fkn wrong. Die hard zealots are the problem with christianity and religion in general.
Religion may give direction for some, but it also divides a large portion of people. From the crusaides, to colonization of Africa, the Caribean, South America, to the holocaust, the creation of Isreal after WW2, to teaching creationism in science class, religion has brought with it many negative affects.

Spirituality > Religion.

[-V-]

But too many Christians, especially in America, are too apathetic, complacent, and lazy to live what they say they believe. And they think their "faith" is enough. Jesus is not a "Get out of hell free card." You don't just "say the prayer" and go back to living your life in sin. Christianity is about spiritual transformation.
Indeed, thats also one of the things I've observed around here where people use church to mentally reconcile with themselves the "I cheat on my wife, but I go to church, so that makes me a good person" mentality. Sad really.

[Fearfisch]

Isn't free will great?
Except it isn't really free...

/me goes back to lurking

[mg23]

Except it isn't really free...

Explain. Do you think that because of my faith in Jesus Christ that I'm not free? On the contrary, I do live free - free from being a slave to sin. I used to think that "free will" was merely the ability to make choices on your own without outside circumstances, but I've since realized differently. By choosing Jesus, I choose life, by choosing otherwise, I live under sin's command.

[Agent Law]

In your eyes.

[GoatChomper]

Bush and his neo-conservative buddies are indeed giving christianity a bad name by turning the war in Iraq into a holy war; Muslims vs. Christians.
My dedicated FAX line to VRWC Headquarters must have been down that day.....when was this announced?

[KillerChiaPet]

My dedicated FAX line to VRWC Headquarters must have been down that day.....when was this announced?
Owned?

[GrosPoisson]

Bush and his neo-conservative buddies are indeed giving christianity a bad name by turning the war in Iraq into a holy war; Muslims vs. Christians. They are both fkn wrong. Die hard zealots are the problem with christianity and religion in general.

Whoa, whoa, back up. How on earth is the war in Iraq a holy war? I don't see us blowing up every last mosque we come across and preventing people from practicing their faith. If that were the case, then there would be a very, very legitimate reason for jihad.

Seriously. Are there NO FACTS that there is a right religion? Is all this FAITH BOUND? If so, then it seems kind of foolish to involve yourself in something so....supersticous....

Fair enough. I would still caution against trusting in almighty science overly much. The eugenics movement in America in the early 20th century was a great example of science and reason running amok: as a side effect of this surge in interest in eugenics, many children were labeled as morons because of their "lowborn" parents, and put in shoddily-run state homes that were supposed to rehabilitate them. Most of them were perfectly fine. Fast forward to the present day, and the children that were labeled such have grown up to be functioning adults whose prospects in life were crushed because that label of "moron" followed them when it was time for job interviews and schooling.

Religion and science are both equally capable of doing terrible things.

[Hunter-Killer]

Hey! Everybody goes around bashing Stalin for killing millions and all, yeah, what about Pinochet? And every other dictator in the world? Oh wait! Stalin was an atheist and the others were christian! That's right, Huh! huh! :p

[GrosPoisson]

The question still stands though, how is the war in Iraq a holy war on the part of "the Christians?"

[Hunter-Killer]

The question still stands though, how is the war in Iraq a holy war on the part of "the Christians?"

Nevermind that :rolleyes:

[puke o'hara]

Unfortunately that's not the case. People don't have to be Christ-like to be Christian. But they should. To say you're a Christian and still live constantly in sin shows a bad example for other Christians, God, and Christ himself. It misrepresents what God is about.Humans can't help living in sin. Of course, a christian shouldn't do sinful things if he can help it, but humans are inherently sinful.I know, and that's why I separated the two instead of combining them as one. However, the Bible does stress the importance of fellowship with other believers and constant spiritual growth.You don't need church for either of these.The fact is, most people accomplish those things through church, although it's not the only way.The fact according to ... who? Likewise, I'd like to take a look at the source of the statistics you quoted earlier too.I didn't say it wasn't a generalization. But if only 1% of Europeans still practice religion or attend church, I'd say it's a pretty accurate generalization of the spirituality of the region.I just need to take a look around and I can see the lack of accuracy in your generalization.Hardly. What I was saying is that Satan believes in God and Christ, but that doesn't make him a Christian. The fact is, Christianity (as taken from the Gospel) requires more than just belief. Jesus said, "Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me." But too many Christians, especially in America, are too apathetic, complacent, and lazy to live what they say they believe. And they think their "faith" is enough. Jesus is not a "Get out of hell free card." You don't just "say the prayer" and go back to living your life in sin. Christianity is about spiritual transformation.Spiritual transformation doesn't mean changing the way you live in. A human being can't help sinning. Naturally, a believer should act in a "christian" way, but in the end, such actions are irrelevant.

[Violin]

I look at Religion and Science. I question them both. I look for facts on both sides. Religion basicly has no facts that would make someone beleive that it is the RIGHT way to go, or the right religion, or whatever. Its all faith.

Science on the other hand, can be explained logically, and has helped this planet more than religion could EVER help. I dont see scientists behaving out of line all the time. I dont see scientist trying to force people into beleiving that science is the only way. They have made our world better in most cases, but also they can fuck up like normal people.

I do not see how believing in a religion, can make the world better. If you didnt beleive in a religion, you can still be the same person. Sometimes i think religion is a way for people to escape and to provide and excuse for their actions so they can go and claim "Religion has saved me! I am now a better person!"

Fucking bullshit. You are providing an excuse to save your ass. OMGZ JESUS HAS SAVED MEH! IM A BETTER PERSON! Bullshit. You are responsible for yourself and your decisions, and you cant instantly say your a better person, and you have been cleansed, because of some stupid diety magically said so. No.

Seriously. When you look at Sceince, and Religion. Science has the facts, science can be explained logically, whereas religion cannot.

I remember when that space shuttle columbia blew up, there were a bunch of people in my nieghboorhead (they were the church goers), who said that "OH MY! GOD HAS SMACKED DOWN COLUMBIA JUST AS HE DID CHALLENGER! WE ARENT MENT TO GO UP INTO THE HEAVENS YET!" Now wtf is that shit. That stuff makes me mad. :\

Now wouldnt it suck, when you died, and you found out that there was no religion at all. You could of lived your life to the fullest without an additional set of rules, maybe had more fun, or maybe you would of lived the same. Or maybe you found out you were practicing the wrong religion. And you find yourself casted into the flames of hell. Or maybe you still get saved, but feel pretty dumb finding yourself praciticing the wrong religion? Even vice versa, if i didnt feel there was a right religion, but there indeed was a right religion. It would suck blue balls greatly.

I dont mean to make any of you upset, and yes im greatly biased towards religion. But i save it for debate. Such as this. And I DO have valid points.

And as for trusting science too much.... I trust it enough. But i dont live by it. Where as religion is going to do absolutely nothing for this earth from what i see. I mean look at what religion has done in the past. Holocaust, holy wars, a bunch of fights and scirmishes. You dont see people who study science go and do that mess. Im sure science has caused its share of problems, but only recently. Why this religion has dated back thousands of years ago, people STILL fighting about it then, people still fighting about it now.

[kreket]

Except it isn't really free...

Fearfisch goes back to lurking

I know what you mean. With brainwash treatments, manipulation of information and so on.. ..we didn't choose the regime we were born in.

Anyone who has dealt with madness can explain to you that the mind is a delicate thing and only have that much tolerance for 'wrong logic' before something is broken. A pattern could emerge that is simply not good.


I find it kind of funny how some select 'christians' (they sort of deserve the ''s) call Islam a religion of submission. I don't know if this is a common thing or not, but those that are funny or maybe tragic are the ones who at the same time does not tolerate discussions on God within their sects or any diverging opinion. YOU ARE SATANIC! HARRY POTTER IS THE WORK OF SATAN AND JOANNE ROWLING IS A WITCH GIVING HER BODY TO THE DEVIL IN MIDNIGHT RITUALS!

How heretics would be burned on the stake in the dark ages is conveniently ignored. Toleration only for their God, their sect, their leadership. Satan moves in many guises, you mark my word.

[aeiou]

Christians...hmmm

Well, for the most part they're alright. A couple I have met are pretty annoying though.

I do think their beliefs are funny :D

[Enders]

I haven't really read the thread, but I'll put in my 2 cents
I'm a Roman Catholic, and I believe in God and all that shit (some of my views are slightly different)
I think I can speak for all catholics and christians when I say that we're not ALL rocking chair grandmother fanatics. I have to say, the amount of religion that has entered government and such now (to the extreme where people are being voted into congress because they're good christians) is just ridiculas now.
Seriously, government and church needs to be seperate, or else we get the bullshit censorship and bullying we have now in the US

[mg23]

I look at Religion and Science. I question them both. I look for facts on both sides. Religion basicly has no facts that would make someone beleive that it is the RIGHT way to go, or the right religion, or whatever. Its all faith.

Science on the other hand, can be explained logically, and has helped this planet more than religion could EVER help. I dont see scientists behaving out of line all the time. I dont see scientist trying to force people into beleiving that science is the only way. They have made our world better in most cases, but also they can fuck up like normal people.

I do not see how believing in a religion, can make the world better. If you didnt beleive in a religion, you can still be the same person. Sometimes i think religion is a way for people to escape and to provide and excuse for their actions so they can go and claim "Religion has saved me! I am now a better person!"

Fucking bullshit. You are providing an excuse to save your ass. OMGZ JESUS HAS SAVED MEH! IM A BETTER PERSON! Bullshit. You are responsible for yourself and your decisions, and you cant instantly say your a better person, and you have been cleansed, because of some stupid diety magically said so. No.

Seriously. When you look at Sceince, and Religion. Science has the facts, science can be explained logically, whereas religion cannot.

I remember when that space shuttle columbia blew up, there were a bunch of people in my nieghboorhead (they were the church goers), who said that "OH MY! GOD HAS SMACKED DOWN COLUMBIA JUST AS HE DID CHALLENGER! WE ARENT MENT TO GO UP INTO THE HEAVENS YET!" Now wtf is that shit. That stuff makes me mad. :\

Now wouldnt it suck, when you died, and you found out that there was no religion at all. You could of lived your life to the fullest without an additional set of rules, maybe had more fun, or maybe you would of lived the same. Or maybe you found out you were practicing the wrong religion. And you find yourself casted into the flames of hell. Or maybe you still get saved, but feel pretty dumb finding yourself praciticing the wrong religion? Even vice versa, if i didnt feel there was a right religion, but there indeed was a right religion. It would suck blue balls greatly.

I dont mean to make any of you upset, and yes im greatly biased towards religion. But i save it for debate. Such as this. And I DO have valid points.

And as for trusting science too much.... I trust it enough. But i dont live by it. Where as religion is going to do absolutely nothing for this earth from what i see. I mean look at what religion has done in the past. Holocaust, holy wars, a bunch of fights and scirmishes. You dont see people who study science go and do that mess. Im sure science has caused its share of problems, but only recently. Why this religion has dated back thousands of years ago, people STILL fighting about it then, people still fighting about it now.

I won't comment on this very much, since I'm sure I'll miss the best way of explaining it, and KCP is much better at explaining things than I am. However, I'll sum it up and say that science puts just as much faith in itself as religion does.

Now wouldnt it suck, when you died, and you found out that there was no religion at all. You could of lived your life to the fullest without an additional set of rules, maybe had more fun, or maybe you would of lived the same. Or maybe you found out you were practicing the wrong religion. And you find yourself casted into the flames of hell. Or maybe you still get saved, but feel pretty dumb finding yourself praciticing the wrong religion? Even vice versa, if i didnt feel there was a right religion, but there indeed was a right religion. It would suck blue balls greatly.
Ah, but wouldn't it suck if we were right? ;)
I'd also like to ask if you truly believe that having premarital sex, or doing drugs, or doing whatever you want (I'm not saying you do all these, but you understand my point), really makes you happy? I'm sure you'll answer "yes," but to yourself I'd like you to really ask yourself that question. I'd like you to know, also, that living with Jesus in my life isn't about a bunch of rules (heck, the whole reason He came down wasn't to punish lawbreakers, or enforce the law, He came down to get rid of the Law), it's about a relationship. :)
I haven't really read the thread, but I'll put in my 2 cents
I'm a Roman Catholic, and I believe in God and all that shit (some of my views are slightly different)
I think I can speak for all catholics and christians when I say that we're not ALL rocking chair grandmother fanatics. I have to say, the amount of religion that has entered government and such now (to the extreme where people are being voted into congress because they're good christians) is just ridiculas now.
Seriously, government and church needs to be seperate, or else we get the bullshit censorship and bullying we have now in the US
And what, in the Constitution, says anything about separation of church and state?

[-V-]

I won't comment on this very much, since I'm sure I'll miss the best way of explaining it, and KCP is much better at explaining things than I am. However, I'll sum it up and say that science puts just as much faith in itself as religion does.
However, there's a distinct diffirence between religion and science. Sure some things are based on faith in both of 'em (Jesus is God's Son, 1+1=2) however in science things are reproducable. If I publish a paper that say under such such and such conditions if I drop a ball to the ground it just hovers in mid air, someone else can set up the same conditions and get the exact same results. If Newton's laws says for every action there's an equal and opposite reacton, the you can, at will, set up an experiment that demonstrates exactly such thing. However, if you say Jesus healed the leppers with his touch or that god is all-knowing...ah good luck reproducing or proving that.


And what, in the Constitution, says anything about separation of church and state?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Translating to: Seperation of Church (the "an establishment of religion" part, where establishment refers to organization/club/religion/congregation) and State.

[FaKToR]

There are ample things in the Constitution that we govern by that are not explicitly stated. It would be foolish to think the letter of the law can convey all intentions without being ridiculously specific and convoluted.

[Violin]

I'd like you to know, also, that living with Jesus in my life isn't about a bunch of rules (heck, the whole reason He came down wasn't to punish lawbreakers, or enforce the law, He came down to get rid of the Law), it's about a relationship. :)

hippy! <3

[Violin]

Science can put a lot of faith in itself because its logical, and it has FACTS that religion does not seem to have. I like science, i am very intriuged by it. But i dont dive into it and do whatever those science maniacs do. I simply support it over religion, because science makes more sense.

How do you even know there is a GOD?
Can you see it?
Can you taste it? (ewie)
Can you smell it?
Can you touch it?
NO. You cannot do any of these. But all you faith bound people say, is that "But i can feel it in my heart!"

Bullshit.

Relligion is all ... book based. You cant see religion affecting anything, except these stupid little fights and wars thousands of years ago, and even fights now caused by religion. Granted im only seeing the bad side of religion. But when you look at science, you dont see people going to war because "OMFG NEWTONS LAW IS TRU DUDE!" otherside- "NO ITS NOT! HE DIDNT USE AN APPLE! IT WAS A PUMPKIN! DUH!" Hell theres even a speicific word for a religious holy war. Jihad. Is there any term relating that with science? >:|

[GrosPoisson]

You cant see religion affecting anything, except these stupid little fights and wars thousands of years ago, and even fights now caused by religion.

You forget about the Protestant work ethic. That's a big one that's affected the development of the modern world. Yes, you can have capitalism without religion, but it's hard to say whether or not it would have developed in the manner and at the time that it did without the Protestant factor. Further reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic)

Also, the advent of Islam had a very, very big effect on the social, political, and economic development of the Middle East back in the 7th century. I mean this in the completely objective sense: religion and power struggle often go hand in hand.

[FaKToR]

I see it being very difficult to argue that capitalism follows christian values.

[GrosPoisson]

Meh. Enough people back in the day thought it did apparently, so I brought that up.

[kreket]

A few naggers on science.

Noone has ever observed a thought. There has been observations of stimulated areas, but we have yet to see the physical manifistation of a thought. (Anger gives a hot spot in sector XXY of the brain. This is our level of knowledge now.)

Sometimes when you turn on a science programs on the telly and the subject is the creation of life, someone will say "the first organisms came to earth from a comet". Yeah? So? How was those organisms created, mhm?

I'm on thin ice on this one, but some parts of advanced physics seems to suggest a duality of mutually exclusive entities. I can't remember if this was with light or that finding leading to computers?

Science is about the belief that this world exists. (Insert evil laughter!)

[kreket]

The work ethic being improven was spotted in both catholic and protestant countries at the same time. This was when the protestants had gained some good ground and the catholics had to fight back with the counterreforms.

Something about having to think and hand out reasoning instead of just obedient worship may have been the issue. (Changing a feudal suppression by religion into a more philosophical debate, removing a set of authoritarians.)

Perhaps the printing machine was to blame, as it gave access to thoughts and ideas at cheap prices. The ending of the 'religious' European wars gave way to the state deciding over it's territory, not the church. That may have produced some effect. Another option is overpopulation. People could no longer afford to stay put and seek ever more sparetime like in the high age. They had to maximise what output they could. (Much of this is my own pondering.)

[Agent Law]

Hell theres even a speicific word for a religious holy war. Jihad. Is there any term relating that with science? >:|
Debate. =/

And jihad means struggle.

[GrosPoisson]

I'm on thin ice on this one, but some parts of advanced physics seems to suggest a duality of mutually exclusive entities. I can't remember if this was with light or that finding leading to computers?

The wave-particle duality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality) of light you mean? That one gave me a headache when I was first introduced to it. As far as I know, they still haven't found out what the fundamental nature of light is, and that's why they use the wave-particle duality concept to help explain it.

[Violin]

Debate. =/

And jihad means struggle.


ji·had also je·had Audio pronunciation of "jihad" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (j-häd)
n.

1. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
2. A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke” (Fortune).

[Agent Law]

ji·had also je·had Audio pronunciation of "jihad" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (j-häd)
n.

1. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
2. A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke” (Fortune).
The second definition you gave is more correct than the first, since the word means to strive or to struggle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

[KillerChiaPet]

How do you even know there is a GOD?
Can you see it?
Can you taste it? (ewie)
Can you smell it?
Can you touch it?
NO. You cannot do any of these. But all you faith bound people say, is that "But i can feel it in my heart!"

Bullshit.
It's late and I have to pack, but I had to comment on this real quick.

How do you know there is WIND?
Can you see it?
Can you taste it?
Can you smell it?
Can you touch it?
NO. You cannot do any of these.

But does wind exist? Yes, of course it does! And we know this because we see the effects of wind. And while you may think it's foolishness, I see the effects of God's work today in people's lives.

For all of you that keep saying, "There is no proof or evidence for Christianity, I challenge you to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He does an in-depth investigation of the Bible to determine whether or not it is truth. And he discovers hordes of supporting evidence that make a very, very strong case to the truth and accuracy of the Bible.

Here's just a quick quote from the book:
"'By comparison,' I asked, 'how many New Testament Greek manuscripts are in existence today?'

Metzger's eyes got wide. 'More than five thousand have been cataloged,' he said with enthusiasm, his voice going up an octave.

'The quantity of New Testament material is almost embarrassing in comparison with other works of antiquity,' he said. 'Next to the New Testament, the greatest amount of manuscript testimony is of Homeri's Iliad, which was the bible of the ancient Greeks. THere are fewer than 650 Greek manuscripts of it today. Some are quite fragmentary. They come down to us from the second and third century A.D. and following. When you consider that Homer composed his epic about 800 B.C., you can see there's a very lengthy gap.'

Just the fact that we have a lot of original Greek manuscripts of the Bible in existence doesn't mean much without his proving the accuracy of these texts in other chapters. I challenge you to read the book.

[Violin]

It's late and I have to pack, but I had to comment on this real quick.

How do you know there is WIND?
Can you see it?
Can you taste it?
Can you smell it?
Can you touch it?
NO. You cannot do any of these.

But does wind exist? Yes, of course it does! And we know this because we see the effects of wind. And while you may think it's foolishness, I see the effects of God's work today in people's lives.

For all of you that keep saying, "There is no proof or evidence for Christianity, I challenge you to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He does an in-depth investigation of the Bible to determine whether or not it is truth. And he discovers hordes of supporting evidence that make a very, very strong case to the truth and accuracy of the Bible.

Here's just a quick quote from the book:
"'By comparison,' I asked, 'how many New Testament Greek manuscripts are in existence today?'

Metzger's eyes got wide. 'More than five thousand have been cataloged,' he said with enthusiasm, his voice going up an octave.

'The quantity of New Testament material is almost embarrassing in comparison with other works of antiquity,' he said. 'Next to the New Testament, the greatest amount of manuscript testimony is of Homeri's Iliad, which was the bible of the ancient Greeks. THere are fewer than 650 Greek manuscripts of it today. Some are quite fragmentary. They come down to us from the second and third century A.D. and following. When you consider that Homer composed his epic about 800 B.C., you can see there's a very lengthy gap.'

Just the fact that we have a lot of original Greek manuscripts of the Bible in existence doesn't mean much without his proving the accuracy of these texts in other chapters. I challenge you to read the book.


I think your being slightly silly. Since you know wind obviously exists. On the other hand, not everyone thinks GOD exists. Science explains why wind exists. But what the hell explains how god exists that ISNT faith bound?

And i dont like reading about religion. It gets me angry.

[Evil Superstar]

How do you know there is WIND?
Can you see it?
Can you taste it?
Can you smell it?
Can you touch it?
NO. You cannot do any of these.

But does wind exist? Yes, of course it does! And we know this because we see the effects of wind. And while you may think it's foolishness, I see the effects of God's work today in people's lives.


You can measure wind. And you can certainly feel it when you are outside :p

[Hunter-Killer]

Sometimes when you turn on a science programs on the telly and the subject is the creation of life, someone will say "the first organisms came to earth from a comet". Yeah? So? How was those organisms created, mhm?

If "god" created all, then who created "god" ? :rolleyes:

[Violin]

Science rofl. Rofl that wwould be so damned weird.

[Chris R]

If "god" created all, then who created "god" ? :rolleyes:
Who knows, I guess we'll find out. That's part of having faith. Just pray and hope you guessed right.

And yeah, come to think of it, faith is also a way of looking at the world. Like KCP, when I look at the world I see the effect of God on people. You precieve it in an entirely different way.

Nothing inherently wrong with either, but that's just part of faith, believing in what can't exactly be proven. Sound silly? To some, sure, to others, yeah. Again, as was pointed out, the same goes with science. It proves a lot, but it also puts a lot of faith in theories.

[-V-]

Puts a lot of faith in theories? Gravity is a theory, but it provides a very good demonstration that it is quite real when you fall down face first on the sidewalk.

Remember, vocabulary used in science is diffirent from the common term. A theory in Science is essentially a proven fact that is supported by countless examples and experiments.

[Agent Law]

It's late and I have to pack, but I had to comment on this real quick.

How do you know there is WIND?
Can you see it?
Can you taste it?
Can you smell it?
Can you touch it?
NO. You cannot do any of these.

But does wind exist? Yes, of course it does! And we know this because we see the effects of wind. And while you may think it's foolishness, I see the effects of God's work today in people's lives.

For all of you that keep saying, "There is no proof or evidence for Christianity, I challenge you to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He does an in-depth investigation of the Bible to determine whether or not it is truth. And he discovers hordes of supporting evidence that make a very, very strong case to the truth and accuracy of the Bible.

Here's just a quick quote from the book:
"'By comparison,' I asked, 'how many New Testament Greek manuscripts are in existence today?'

Metzger's eyes got wide. 'More than five thousand have been cataloged,' he said with enthusiasm, his voice going up an octave.

'The quantity of New Testament material is almost embarrassing in comparison with other works of antiquity,' he said. 'Next to the New Testament, the greatest amount of manuscript testimony is of Homeri's Iliad, which was the bible of the ancient Greeks. THere are fewer than 650 Greek manuscripts of it today. Some are quite fragmentary. They come down to us from the second and third century A.D. and following. When you consider that Homer composed his epic about 800 B.C., you can see there's a very lengthy gap.'

Just the fact that we have a lot of original Greek manuscripts of the Bible in existence doesn't mean much without his proving the accuracy of these texts in other chapters. I challenge you to read the book.
Weren't the libraries of Alexandria burned down by Christians?

[Violin]

Sometimes i think religion is a way for the hopeless to have hope. Which is a good thing.

[Hunter-Killer]

And also a way to do things and getting away with it.

[Violin]

Very true hunter killer....though i was attempting to try and ballance out the negative things ive said :)

::cough priest gaysekz cough cough::

[Enders]

I think of it like this.
Would I rather live a life where I feel totally alone, seperate from everything else, where I'm basically just another mindless drone in a swarm

or

Would I rather live a life where I feel like everything I do is leading up to a great reward at the end. Like everything is a test. And I'm not alone, I'm always have something or someone there watching my back.

It doesn't matter if God exists or not, I'd much rather think he exists and feel better about life than think he doesn't and see it as a waste of time

[Violin]

Get a social life? Go out and be something? Theres more choices than Science or religion.

[Hunter-Killer]

where I'm basically just another mindless drone in a swarm

Religion, no?

[Violin]

Religion.

Urbandictionary.com, and the people say.....

1. religion link send redefine 553 up, 160 down
The biggest lie in human history. It has been responsible for more deaths throughout human history than all other unnatural causes combined. For a thousand years the Church was a tyrannical dictatorship that used religion to control the uneducated masses. Free your minds and come into the 21st century

A sociological institution that's true purpose is to protect the family structure (by alienating homosexuals) through guilt, self-doubt and fear by spouting the dogma of a man-made God in order to increase the reproductive rate of pre-industrial or medieval civilizations, which in turn increases a species overall chance of survival.

Up until about two hundred years ago religion was needed in order to keep high birth rates and control the masses; however today, religion is used as a tool to make war, confuse and psychologically damage people and promote hatred towards diversity
Religion ruined my life and turned me against blacks, jews and gays.

"A sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who have strength in numbers."

-Jesse Ventura
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism are all popular religions.





Ok, im looking through what peopel think this word means, and their ideas behind this word. I cannot find a single good thing about it :\. So someone give me something good about religion...

[mg23]

Urbandictionary.com, and the people say.....

1. religion link send redefine 553 up, 160 down
The biggest lie in human history. It has been responsible for more deaths throughout human history than all other unnatural causes combined. For a thousand years the Church was a tyrannical dictatorship that used religion to control the uneducated masses. Free your minds and come into the 21st century

A sociological institution that's true purpose is to protect the family structure (by alienating homosexuals) through guilt, self-doubt and fear by spouting the dogma of a man-made God in order to increase the reproductive rate of pre-industrial or medieval civilizations, which in turn increases a species overall chance of survival.

Up until about two hundred years ago religion was needed in order to keep high birth rates and control the masses; however today, religion is used as a tool to make war, confuse and psychologically damage people and promote hatred towards diversity
Religion ruined my life and turned me against blacks, jews and gays.

"A sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who have strength in numbers."

-Jesse Ventura
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism are all popular religions.





Ok, im looking through what peopel think this word means, and their ideas behind this word. I cannot find a single good thing about it :\. So someone give me something good about religion...
You're right, religion isn't a good thing. There's a HUGE difference between "religion" and spirituality though, and anyone who's read the Bible will understand that the Bible teaches that spirituality>religion (grace over law).

It's disappointing to see how the world views Christianity - with cynicism, anger, unbased accusations, and misunderstanding. I wonder how many of you have actually opened a Bible; and if you have, how many of you have opened it with a clear mind. I strongly urge every one of you to open to the New Testament, and like KCP said, read The Case for Christ.

[Hunter-Killer]

It's disappointing to see how the world views Christianity - with cynicism, anger, unbased accusations, and misunderstanding.

Huh huh... Christians always look upon other religions/beliefs in an entirely different way! Always respectful and all... Poor christians, victims of millennia of persecution and prejudice!

[mg23]

Huh huh... Christians always look upon other religions/beliefs in an entirely different way! Always respectful and all... Poor christians, victims of millennia of persecution and prejudice!
Every group has bad apples, but that's no reason for you not to investigate the facts first. Many terrible things have happened as a result of science also. So before you hammer Christianity, I suggest you read the New Testament for the true meanings of Christianity.

[Violin]

Science does not start wars. Religion on the other hand does. Science seems to be incapable of starting a war.

Anyways I used to believe in christianity, i read parts of the bible. Not all of it, i might be missing key things to. I stopped though. So some of the things about christianity I know what im talking about. Others I dont, and when I dont understand, I will ask.

A matter of fact, science has been far more helpful, than religion has been. Science though, can be a great help, or it can be a great hinderance, even a destroyer as much as it can save.

[-V-]

I think of it like this.
Would I rather live a life where I feel totally alone, seperate from everything else, where I'm basically just another mindless drone in a swarm.
Or realize that when you are dead, that’s it game over, and make the concuss decision to do great deeds during your life, so that you may have a modicum of hope of achieving the only tangible afterlife known to man, that in the annals of history. One can spend all his time getting ready for death and living humbly, or they can make the most of the very limited time they are here and achieve great deeds that will be echoed by many generations.

[GrosPoisson]

Or realize that when you are dead, that’s it game over, and make the concuss decision to do great deeds during your life, so that you may have a modicum of hope of achieving the only tangible afterlife known to man, that in the annals of history. One can spend all his time getting ready for death and living humbly, or they can make the most of the very limited time they are here and achieve great deeds that will be echoed by many generations.

Nothing stopping religious types from doing the same though. They'll just have an extra set of tenets to motivate them.

[Violin]

Freedom of religion should change if these crazy bomb strapping fanatics still go around thinking they are doing it for their religion

[GrosPoisson]

Freedom of religion should change if these crazy bomb strapping fanatics still go around thinking they are doing it for their religion

That's a rather dangerous thought you have there. Not to menion a surefire way to piss of the rest of the Islamic world. Then we would have a full scale jihad on our hands, and the war in Iraq would actually become a holy war.

[Violin]

Yeah I know it is. And i appologize for that. Im just fustrated at these people who do these things and say its for their religion.

[KillerChiaPet]

Science does not start wars. Religion on the other hand does. Science seems to be incapable of starting a war.
1) Yes, wars have been fought because of Christianity in the past, but you can't just hold a grudge for all eternity against Christians because some well-meaning but way off-balance Christians decades ago screwed up horribly. It's like if you were to hate Germans simply because the Nazi party came out of Germany. There's not a whole lot of Nazis around in Germany anymore, so it would be foolish to still hate them for what the Nazis did.

A matter of fact, science has been far more helpful, than religion has been. Science though, can be a great help, or it can be a great hinderance, even a destroyer as much as it can save.
It all kind of depends on how you look at it:
For one thing, there are plenty of scientists/doctors who are also Christians. People who, because of the morals of Christianity, dedicated their lives to serving others.

Also, I don't see a whole lot of scientists going on missions trips to third world countries to help people. Yeah, they may sit in a lab and try to find the cure for diseases, but how often do they get out and interact with the people that have them? Whereas I know quite a few (and there are thousands more) Christians who go on long-term/permanent missions to suffering countries. They build hospitals, schools, homes, and they teach, heal, and love. I know Christian doctors and dentists who go to suffering countries and treat the people for free (since they have nothing anyway). Missionaries in Africa meet the needs of the people there suffering from AIDS-related disease. I'm sure these people would say Christians are a lot more helpful than the scientists that have yet to find a cure.

And don't simply associate "Christians" or "Christianity" with "religion." As has been said, it's much more than religion, it's a relationship.

[Hunter-Killer]

Every group has bad apples, but that's no reason for you not to investigate the facts first.

Every group has had bad apples? Yes, every group has had the Crusades, the "Holy" inquisition, the stake burnings, the "witch" hunts, etc etc.

Many terrible things have happened as a result of science also.

Terrible things happen as a result of pretty much everything. If terrible things happen as a result of science they are NOT the result of bigotry, prejudice, hatred or intolerance. Many happen by mistake/accident. I don't think the Crusades, etc, were an accident! Oops I seem to have started a holy war :rolleyes:

So before you hammer Christianity, I suggest you read the New Testament for the true meanings of Christianity.

Oh so now we're supposed to judge something by what it says and not by what it's followers do. So you (plural) say all kinds of nasty things about Islam and all, but have you ever read the Koran? You are judging it by the actions of a few, those who are terrorists! So there.

[Violin]

1)
Also, I don't see a whole lot of scientists going on missions trips to third world countries to help people. Yeah, they may sit in a lab and try to find the cure for diseases, but how often do they get out and interact with the people that have them? Whereas I know quite a few (and there are thousands more) Christians who go on long-term/permanent missions to suffering countries. They build hospitals, schools, homes, and they teach, heal, and love. I know Christian doctors and dentists who go to suffering countries and treat the people for free (since they have nothing anyway). Missionaries in Africa meet the needs of the people there suffering from AIDS-related disease. I'm sure these people would say Christians are a lot more helpful than the scientists that have yet to find a cure.

First off. Id like to say that there are many differnt types of scientists, and not all of them wear white lab coats, and sit in a plain colored lab and shove their face into important/delicate equipment, and find cures to these viruses/diseases that save tens and hundreds of thousands of people. Things like Cancer and A.I.Ds will be cured eventually, and probably in our lifetime. And will save MILLIONS of people. Its VITIALLY important for these types of scientists to sit in labs and conduct their research.

Second, The scientists that DONT shove their faces in equipment in labs go out there and they DO help people, and discover new things to bring to the scientists that see no sunlight. Scientists do the same things as christians, go out to suffering countries, and help the people in need. They send their data back home, and now they might have a new piece to their puzzle to work with.

I do not Bash christianity. But rather directly question its purpose. All the people in my old highschool that i knew whom were christian, were uptight. Religion came first every single time. When i would converse with them about things, they always would revert to talking about Christianity. They said they had some Connection with God. Pfff. I call Bullshit on that.

How can you have a connection with something, that you cant see, touch (well you get the deal). So basicly, your equivilence to a connection with god, is having an immaginary wife. Because you can not feel it, see it, touch it. But see it in your mind, and feel it in your heart. Faith.

I question the purpose of Christianity, and Faith. Faith is nothing but a GUESS. Not even and educated guess. Just a random guess based on what you feel.

And the people that say they are christian, but arent so uptight. Arent the type of people i group with the entire christian sect. I dont hate christians. To bo honest I dont hate anyone. But im just giving my opinion, from a mind that once believed in christianity, and has taken in the morals of not drinking, smoking, and doing drugs. No constant s3xing up teh womenz. The morals of Christians. But at a certin phase in church life of a christian, ive seen utter change (the uptightness and frowning on everything that is violent).

I think part of religions problem is that it can not evolve. It can not keep up the pace with our ever changing society. And one day I see its going to fail. All it takes is a fraction of people to ruin something.

**spellcheck coming soon to a thread post near you**

[GrosPoisson]

So you (plural) say all kinds of nasty things about Islam and all, but have you ever read the Koran? You are judging it by the actions of a few, those who are terrorists! So there.

I'm not sure who exactly you're pointing the finger at, but a good deal of us don't recognize Islam as the problem.

[Violin]

Might be at me lol.

[vecdran]

Some of you really need to cut it out with the sweeping generalizations.

[FaKToR]

Wouldn't be a debate in the firebox without them.

[-V-]

Sure it would, exept then it would be a real debate rather then "U suck, No U SUCK!" that was Firebox 1.0.

[Teufel Eldritch]

I cannot express my true feelings on this subject as they would surely be considered flamebait. Let's just say... I do not like the Judeo/Xtian family of religions. If they were removed from this world we would all be much better off.

[BlindSite]

You cannot have a conversation on almost any subject politically or religiously without using atleast some form of generalisation.

[sebastski]

I have no issue with Christianity as an ideal. It's done some very positive things, ranging from soup kitchens and homeless shelters to preserving bastions of civilization during the middle ages.

Christianity as a cult is bad news, and it's done some very negative things, ranging from slavery to mass murder.

Christianity as a religion is annoying, to me. Every time I read a news story about people demanding that their religion be taught in science classes, I lose a little more faith in humanity.

That about covers it.

well said.

[ScAvenger001]

well said.
Thank you.

[Splitlip]

I think its a nice idea, but too many people use it as walls in their hearts and minds, rather than building materials for the way they live their lives. i put into this category both the people who frown at you for not going to church, and the people that fucking kill other people for not going to church. Faith, trust and respect your fellow man before anyones god. Just my 2 or 3 beans.

[BlindSite]

I believe to have respect for this celestial plain reguardless of your belief of another. Not only that but any god who would have me attack and kill the innocent out of some form of necessity would never gain my alligence or my obidience.

[Violin]

I just hate when someones talking to me about religion, and we finish that topic(or so i think), and so we talk about something else. Then suddenly they will go back to talk about religion and so "You need to go to church; You need to Get intouch with god more; Religion would make you a better person." Wtf. I dont want to hear that. And who are they to judge me? My life is just fine. THEY think that if you dont believe in God, that your a bad person or not better off. They feel that you are missing something. And they are right, i AM missing something. Im missing not being a fucking religous zealot.

[KillerChiaPet]

Well, sorry for my absence of late. I just moved into my new dorm and the IT guy on campus has yet to activate the Internet in my room. He still hasn't, but I came back to my parents' house today to get some things and decided to catch up with everybody online, etc.

I didn't really intend to turn this into a debate about the truth of Christianity, but whatever, it's been a pretty good discussion.

However, if anybody else has any more input on their thoughts of Christians (not Christianity), I'd love to hear it. If there are no more responses, then I'll use what's already been said. Thanks guys.

[BlindSite]

Christians for the most part seem like nice enough people. The more often they go to church usually the more welecoming they are. However this can be a two edged blade, sometimes if these welecoming nice christians find out that you're not a follower of any religous institution they seem to have two reactions one is to treat you with contempt and the second is they view you as someone who needs their views changed.

Overall I have no beef with the majority, just the minority that view my beliefs (atheist) as inferior and in need of altering.

[-V-]

Same, as long as christians follow the unwritten comendment of "Thou Shalt Keep Thy Religion To Thy Self" I don't have any beef with 'em. Most are really nice people. However, when they break that commandment...things stop being pritty.

[Gopats]

I'm not sure what my faith is yet. I always question the presence of God and I don't like going to church or following the commandments.

What I have been told in sunday school is that you have to COMPLETLY dedicate your life to God and preaching his name. Which I think is stupid. I think that you live once, so have a good happy life and do what you want to do.

Also I don't believe in miracles or anything. It is all science, nuff said.

I think abortion is alright BEFORE the baby has any brainwaves. If they actually feel the pain it is bad. Once they can think I think of them as humans.

I think gays are people, just a minority and should be treated just like any other person on this earth. I think my thinking is a little screwy but I think of them just like a race, a minority in society.

[Violin]

I never understood the entire abortion thing and why christians hate it.

[ScAvenger001]

Wellll... the abortion thing isn't a specifically christian/non-christian issue. Thinking about where the line is for "when is it ok to kill someone" gives a lot of people the jeeblies.

[mg23]

I never understood the entire abortion thing and why christians hate it.
To me, it's sort of a "what's next?" kind of thing.

[Agent Law]

Elaborate?

[KillerChiaPet]

Elaborate?
I think he means: If we make it legal to kill a baby before it reaches a certain point, what's next to change? We can sentence minors to capital punishment? We can kill homeless people because they are detriments to society? Where do we draw the line on the value of human life?

I'm not trying to say that abortion is leading us towards that, I was just coming up with random examples. So don't go all ape-shit on me.

[theMIKKO]

We can sentence minors to capital punishment?

I thought you did that already.

And don't start with the slippery slope crap...

[vecdran]

I thought you did that already.

Nice try.

[mg23]

I think he means: If we make it legal to kill a baby before it reaches a certain point, what's next to change? We can sentence minors to capital punishment? We can kill homeless people because they are detriments to society? Where do we draw the line on the value of human life?

I'm not trying to say that abortion is leading us towards that, I was just coming up with random examples. So don't go all ape-shit on me.
Exactly.

[Moe_Rahn]

I think he means: If we make it legal to kill a baby before it reaches a certain point, what's next to change? We can sentence minors to capital punishment? We can kill homeless people because they are detriments to society? We can grease up a slope and prepare to slide?
I hate to sound like a complete asshole, here, but seriously, come on now.

[KillerChiaPet]

And don't start with the slippery slope crap...
I hate to sound like a complete asshole, here, but seriously, come on now.
Wow, I was kind of hoping that you guys would actually read my post before saying something like that. Allow me to quote myself.

I'm not trying to say that abortion is leading us towards that, I was just coming up with random examples. So don't go all ape-shit on me.

[Moe_Rahn]

Allow me to quote myself.
I s'pose that begs the question, why even bother with the original post, if you were just making up random things that don't go along with your position?

[GoatChomper]

I thought you did that already.
No.....in capital murder cases, there's a court process to determine whether or not the defendant will be certified as an adult and tried as such. To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't been done with anybody younger than seventeen.

[KillerChiaPet]

I s'pose that begs the question, why even bother with the original post, if you were just making up random things that don't go along with your position?
Because mg23 wasn't around to answer Agent Law's question.

[KillerChiaPet]

Well, I've been crazy busy getting back into the swing of things here at school and elsewhere. But when I made this thread, I had two purposes: one of which I already accomplished in finding out what some general public thinks about questions. And the other purpose is this...

If you read one post in this thread, read THIS ONE!

I wanted to apologize to you guys, to everyone.

I'm sorry for not always living out what I say I believe. I'm sorry for not being a good example of what Jesus was really all about. I'm sorry for any of the times I've judged others or spoke down to them. I'm sorry for any prejudices I ever held. I'm sorry for the times I've been hypocritical. I'm sorry for not caring after the poor and needy. I'm sorry for being complacent and apathetic.

I'm sorry for the Crusades. I'm sorry for televangelists. I'm sorry for hypocrites. I'm sorry for people that shove religion down others' throats. I'm sorry for anybody who's called themselves a Christian and judged others, saying malicious things under a false mask of righteousness. I'm sorry for Republicans. :p


It was brought to my attention before I made this thread that this had to be done. So many Christians in America will hear people make claims like this and immediately get defensive about it. I do. We can't admit and accept that we've done any wrong. Sure, I never killed anybody who didn't believe what I wanted them to, but I associate with a group of people that (albeit VERY mistaken) thought it was God's will. So we get defensive and nobody steps up and says, "Yes, we screwed up. We're sorry." So that's what I wanted to do.

Don Miller puts it much better than I could: “I know that a lot of people will not listen to the words of Christ because people like me, who know Him, carry our own agendas into the conversation rather than just relaying the message Christ wanted to get across.” I’m sorry that there’s been such a misconception about Christ because of “Christianity.” Christ is not a hypocrite, nor apathetic, nor condemning, nor hurtful. Yet we, as Christians, represent Christ and that is the picture we paint. And I’m sorry.

I’m sorry (on behalf of Jesus Christ, since many will no longer listen to His words) for any of you that have been hurt by His followers. And I’m sorry (on a more personal level, on behalf of Christians who try to live as Christ did) for what we’ve done to you.

[GrosPoisson]

No need to apologize. It's ridiculous to try and hold a religion responsible for the actions of some of its crazy followers.

[KillerChiaPet]

I agree, but still lots and lots of people do it.

[TERROR^SS]

Hating christians is trendy, ppl want to rebell against something. Thats why.

[Drunken Master]

So here's what this is about: I'm trying to get a feel of what "non-believers," or people who are not "Christians" think about those who are. From what I've noticed in our society, there are some huge misconceptions about "Christianity" as a religion and the people that follow it. Identifying oneself as a Christian brings hate from other people, and I think that's because many of us (and by that I mean Christians) have misrepresented what this "religion" is about.

I have no problems with Christians, I have problems with Christians who have problems with me.

However I will call out blatent misconceptions about Evolution and science in General if I hear them used by Christians.

Overall though, I'm not too terribly impressed with the Christian Track Record. I could say that about most all religions but Christanity takes the cake. I do also have a problem with Blind faith, and you will notice I do get into arguments with people on here who preach that dogma. When you engage with me in a discourse over Religious flaws, I cant stand it when people quote from the bible. Wether or not you consider it the word of god it was still written by people who CLAIM it's the word of god. On that note the verses that are usually posted, like everything in the bible, are ambugious and overall just an avoidance of the real questions being asked. Because there are a good deal of questions out there that I find most Christians cant answer. And yes there are questions that Athiests cant answer either but we didnt create a religion and ask people to believe it, we broke away from any form of such to begin with, so were not the ones with something to prove.

-e-

To clarify

If Religion didnt exist, there would still be athiests...we just wouldnt need a name.

[KillerChiaPet]

I do also have a problem with Blind faith, and you will notice I do get into arguments with people on here who preach that dogma.
Well, I don't have blind faith. There is evidence that points towards intelligent design. There have been things in my life and things I've seen that I can't explain with earthly things. I've examined the possibilities.

When you engage with me in a discourse over Religious flaws, I cant stand it when people quote from the bible. Wether or not you consider it the word of god it was still written by people who CLAIM it's the word of god.
You have a point, but there are also writings from history that support conclusively the accuracy of Biblical writers, most notably New Testament scriptures. Writings from Josephus, Tacitus, etc give much credibility to the Bible.

Because there are a good deal of questions out there that I find most Christians cant answer. And yes there are questions that Athiests cant answer either but we didnt create a religion and ask people to believe it, we broke away from any form of such to begin with, so were not the ones with something to prove.
I'm curious about what questions you're talking about, PM me if you wish.

And also, we're not asking people to believe what we believe or what we want them to. We just want everyone to know that God loves them and is not just sitting up in Heaven with a stick waiting for us to step out of line so He can smack us back into place. That's not what it's about.

[DunNa]

I really don't have any beliefs.. Well to an extent, I've been raised and spent alot of time looking up and reading up on religions (I actually considered majoring in theology at one point).

What I do dislike are "athiests" which more often then not comes off as a "haha I'm a rebel/I'm cool your not and your wrong so piss off" type deal. Very rarely do I find an Atheist thats truely a firm "believer" that there is no god or spirit to the world.

My normal question I pose to most is explain how we came to be and don't just use a brush off type answer like evolution and be done with it. Even christianity can be inturpreted to say that yes evolution is how we are what we are today. It basicly ends up coming down to they say "the big bang" (or something similar) and that means its over that they have proven that there is no spirit or God/deity out there. Then I ask them to explain how the "bang" happened how the materials for this explosion were made. You can keep going deeper and deeper before you just have to take something on faith.

Basicly what I'm saying is. The hate comes from people who wish to believe they are better (thats being used very broadly) or just individuals and yet they cannot prove to themselves that what there saying is true and it creates and inner doubt, so they try to prove that there point is more valid, and more scientifically sound.
This is the same kind of thing that happens between religious groups. It just happens that Christianity is basicly one of the most common and socially acceptable religions out there right now and so it takes most of the heat.

Meh I'm shutting up now before I have the atheist libertarians of America come in there black helos and kill me :p

[Luguberos]

I erst wrote half an essay on how i feel about Christianity, then i read the title of this thread again. It's like asking how i feel about rap; there are a couple songs i can enjoy and it's not a bad thing in itself, but as a whole, i don't like it at all.

I was raised Methodist, but now i consider myself a heathen by a certain definition. Everybody on my dad's side of the family is a Christian, or is at least going along with it. Christians like my parents are conservative and good, but not fond of things they perceive as forbidden, such as nudity, crossdressing, RPG:s, heathendom, that time i shaved my legs, impatriotism, ect. We respect each other and get along, try to find common ground, and there's never been a hassle.

There are tolerant Christians i know of, who are the best Christians they can be, but some members of their families are totally free as if Christianity and late Western tradition never existed.

There are unreasonable Christians. One guy i knew in high school had to sell his Zelda III game because his mom didn't want him to have a game where you can use magic. I recall a Christian radio show called Adventures in Odyssey where in one episode, one of the main characters and his visiting cousin play Castles and Cauldrons, and it was awesome. Then the main character, who's a pious old man, stops their game and destroys it, and in the end, the cousin gets treatment for his RPG:ing problem. And there are those who voted to ammend our very constitution to ban gay marriage nationwide.

Then there are extremists that feel it's their duty to conduct bloody crusades. In medieval Germany, the Saxons resisted Christianity, so Charlemagne made war on them and killed off the those who valued their freedom or loved their gods more than life itself. In India, there are Christian terrorists who act as brigands while erasing heathendom wherever they can.

I understand that there are true Christians, and so-called Christians, but Christianity and the Church are simply things that i'm against.

[. . .]
Same with the druids and the Egyptians.

True Druidic beliefs are unknown, for the most part.

[Hempi]

I have but one thing to say to the christian extremists... "Have you ever read the Dead Sea Scrolls?"

They were removed from the original bible because they are completely backwards from what the bible's goal is.

In the scrolls, Jesus Christ's life between the ages of 13 and 33 (or whatever year he died, I dont know) are revealed. The bible as we know it leaves these years out. The scrolls have in text, the recording of big J-Man himself pushing a kid off of a roof and killing him. Also, in light of being prosecuted for this crime, Jesus resurrected the kid and manipulated him into saying that Jesus didn't murder him. This is not ALL the scrolls say, but check them out yourself.

NOW, with that out of the way, I am not of the christian faith ^^.

[mg23]

I have but one thing to say to the christian extremists... "Have you ever read the Dead Sea Scrolls?"

They were removed from the original bible because they are completely backwards from what the bible's goal is.

In the scrolls, Jesus Christ's life between the ages of 13 and 33 (or whatever year he died, I dont know) are revealed. The bible as we know it leaves these years out. The scrolls have in text, the recording of big J-Man himself pushing a kid off of a roof and killing him. Also, in light of being prosecuted for this crime, Jesus resurrected the kid and manipulated him into saying that Jesus didn't murder him. This is not ALL the scrolls say, but check them out yourself.

NOW, with that out of the way, I am not of the christian faith ^^.
Oh wow, the Dead Sea Scrolls don't say ANYTHING about that. They're all from the Old Testament, a time when Jesus wasn't even born. I sincerely hope you look again at where you're getting your information. I mean seriously, I just reread what you posted and I'm in utter disbelief. What kind of maniac would conceive something like that?

[Dr Boners]

I don't have any real problems with christians as a whole. But most of the ones in my town attempt to push it on everyone they know (the presbyterian(sp?) church in particular). I'm an atheist, but I'm not the kind to go around saying that every religion is wrong, but when people ruin a religion by using it as an excuse to be mean (A girl I know decided to stop going to the pres. church, the other kids at school who still went spread rumours, called her a slut, and generally treated her like shit because she was a "traitor"). I have met alot of very nice christians who use thier faith to help people (The Catholic and United/Methodist churches in town are great people), but you never hear about them. The ones who are assholes about their faith are the ones who ruin the reputation of the church.

[GoatChomper]

I have but one thing to say to the christian extremists... "Have you ever read the Dead Sea Scrolls?"

They were removed from the original bible because they are completely backwards from what the bible's goal is.
F0MG H4X! Somehow, a set of writings not unearthed at Qumran until 1959 AD were excised from a body of writing finalized in 325 AD!

Try again.

[GrosPoisson]

The scrolls have in text, the recording of big J-Man himself pushing a kid off of a roof and killing him. Also, in light of being prosecuted for this crime, Jesus resurrected the kid and manipulated him into saying that Jesus didn't murder him.

There's a story that has Jesus killing a kid who sasses him, but that's in the Apocrypha and not the Dead Sea Scrolls. Fact checking is your friend.

[FaKToR]

The Dead Sea Scrolls comprise roughly 850 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea). The texts are of great signficance in a religious context (as well as a political context), as they are practically the only remaining Biblical documents dating from before AD 100.
Assuming wikipedia is correct, you seem to have some mistakes there GC.

[GoatChomper]

Actually, I seem to recall something in the news from last year about another possible Q-source being announced from the same region. Maybe not.

[Violin]

It would seem there are more "Pushy" christians than the type that are "Awesome and nice". Anyone who doesnt play a game, or something to that effect, because of a religion, seriously has something wrong with them. I could understand if it was something slightly harmful, but a GAME? Comeone. THats fucking lame.

[KillerChiaPet]

Actually, I seem to recall something in the news from last year about another possible Q-source being announced from the same region. Maybe not.
The source Q is just a theory. It comes from the word "quell" (I don't know if that's really how it's spelled), which is Greek for "source" (fancy that). Most modern scholars agree that both Matthew and Luke probably drew upon Mark (the first Gospel written). The source "Q" is the supposed source that Mark used for his writings. It's not universally accepted, but could be quite probable seeing as how the other Gospel writers used other sources (i.e. Luke using Jesus' mother, Mary) for their writings.

But Q being an actual document from the same region, let alone Qumran is not true. If it exists, it would just be a compilation of other writings.


And about the Dead Sea Scrolls.... they were written by a sect of Jews called the Essenes and contain literature similar to the traditional pseudepigrapha. By the time Jesus came on the scene there were a few different sects of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and Herodians. Despite the Pharisees' reputation for being extremely legalistic to the Mosaic Law (part of why they argued with Jesus so much), the Essenes were infinitely MORE strict in following the law. That's why they segregated themselves from society (with many living in Qumran).

[GoatChomper]

The source Q is just a theory. It comes from the word "quell" (I don't know if that's really how it's spelled), which is Greek for "source" (fancy that).
Correction: It's German.....Quelle.

[Loké]

Okay, I'm going to try something new here and see how this turns out...
I don't think anything about christmas anymore. It was originally a relegious festival, but now it's had the soul sucked out of it by relegion, and is about as relegious as Darwin's evolution theory.

(re reads title) Aw crap. I thought you said CHRISTMAS. Ah well.

Christians seem to come over as two types; fire and brimstone arseholes like bush and those evangelist preachers, or like the archbishop of canterbury, a useless wet fart.

[KillerChiaPet]

Correction: It's German.....Quelle.
My bad, somehow I knew that wasn't right. I just got out of my Gospels class and my professor always harps about Greek this, Greek that, so I guess it was just stuck in my brain.

(re reads title) Aw crap. I thought you said CHRISTMAS. Ah well.
Lol! :p

[Whoami88]

http://www.christiansoldiers.org/index.html

Islam isn't the only one that has paramilitary organizations anymore, These guys seem less extreme though.

Am I the only that thinks the next big war is gonna be a relgious war between "people of the book" and Muslims? Or am I just paranoid?

[Agent Law]

Probably being overconcerned. Most likely there won't be any major powers that would allow (or at least participate in) a war based on disagreements of theology.

[KillerChiaPet]

Probably being overconcerned. Most likely there won't be any major powers that would allow (or at least participate in) a war based on disagreements of theology.
Agreed. That's not to say that there won't be religious wars though (I don't think the war in Israel will ever stop until the end times and the 7 year peace to be honest).

[Whoami88]

Well guys, theres alot of religious fighting going on in the world that simply don't make the news. Especially in Indonesia *cough*Terrorist State *uncough*

[GoatChomper]

http://www.christiansoldiers.org/index.html
Merely more in the vein of Foxhound Militia, minus the drooling over guns.

[Toastar]

1) Yes, wars have been fought because of Christianity in the past, but you can't just hold a grudge for all eternity against Christians because some well-meaning but way off-balance Christians decades ago screwed up horribly. It's like if you were to hate Germans simply because the Nazi party came out of Germany. There's not a whole lot of Nazis around in Germany anymore, so it would be foolish to still hate them for what the Nazis did.

The thing is, you choose to be a christian or not, you don't choose the nation that you were born in.

I don't really know how to put this...

its like wanting to be a nazi "Adherents of Nazism held that the Aryan race were superior to other races, and they promoted Germanic racial supremacy and a strong, centrally governed state."(source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism)) without the mass killing.

you believe your religion is the best in the world and the church really is a centralized governed state in a way (vatican city/pope).

sure they've killed before but it doesn't matter now.

I realized it is different because we're not talking about just a government but of peoples death/afterlife/meaning of life beliefs, but both killed millions of peoples in the name of their beliefs.

[KillerChiaPet]

you believe your religion is the best in the world and the church really is a centralized governed state in a way (vatican city/pope).
Just for the record, I'm not Catholic.

And I disagree with you, but whatevs.

[StandingCow]

This is an interesting topic...

Back when I was in high school I used to go to church (was forced actually). Eventually I started working at a christian book and music store.

Then I started to see the hypocrisy from alot of christians. The store owner mostly... she was extremely judgemental first off...

Then there are people like my grandmother who proclaim to be good christian people but are so racist it would make you sick.

Personally I belive in God, but thats as far as I go... I dont preach, hell I cant remember the last time I read a bible or prayed, but I still belive there is a higher being.

[GrosPoisson]

Personally I belive in God, but thats as far as I go... I dont preach, hell I cant remember the last time I read a bible or prayed, but I still belive there is a higher being.

Same deal here. I always wonder what the results would look like if the nation was surveyed with a question along the lines of "Do you believe in God, but don't ascribe to any particular religion?"

[Ramirez]

they suck.

Latin America, Mexico, Philipinos and other very religious countries show best what it means for developement as well as corruption and crime.

Bingo

[DunNa]

but both killed millions of peoples in the name of their beliefs.
Least of all shall we forget the greatest killer of all human nature and power/greed. Or what brought the power to those people.... science! With such amazing things as Guns, bombs, nuclear weapons, bio and chemical weapons, and the list goes on.

Religion maybe a big rallying point for alot of things but to say that its purely them is abit out there. If you ask me it was more human nature than anything else.

Also Mr. Commie are you saying you liked/endourse and prescribe to following the ways of people that have done things such Tienamin Square?

Also not all christians are Catholics, theres about 5bizzilion (w00t for real numbers) denomonations out there. Then theres even the "non-denomonational" ones which are basicly trying to be a religion without anything really political or power structure beyond themselves.

[KillerChiaPet]

I always wonder what the results would look like if the nation was surveyed with a question along the lines of "Do you believe in God, but don't ascribe to any particular religion?"
It'd be huge. It seems that a huge majority of people in America pray. But they don't really know who or what they're praying to. They're kinda just praying to a sky fairie hoping to get what they want. They think there is a higher power but are unwilling to devote anything to that power.

[Toastar]

Also Mr. Commie are you saying you liked/endourse and prescribe to following the ways of people that have done things such Tienamin Square?

huh?

[GrosPoisson]

I'm not sure about this, but I think he's trying to say that the ChiComs still pulled a Tiananmen Square without the aid of religion.

[StandingCow]

I dont belive anything has been disproven in the bible either... there is evidence of the flood for one...

I would get into the prophecies... but some of them are just so broad that its obvious that they would one day come true...

[GrosPoisson]

I dont belive anything has been disproven in the bible either... there is evidence of the flood for one...

They really haven't gotten anything conclusive either way AFAIK. Perhaps that's God's way of hinting that we shouldn't worry about that and start actually following up on religious principles instead of playing "UH HUH" "NUH UH" all the time.

[OMFG it g00]

YOU SHOULD ALL BE UNITARIANS
end

[GrosPoisson]

I sense a free trip to Banland courtesy of the mods soon.

[KillerChiaPet]

I would get into the prophecies... but some of them are just so broad that its obvious that they would one day come true...
I disagree. While some may seem broad, most of the time that will be cleared up when you examine the context. Do you have specific examples?

Not only that, MANY of them are EXTREMELY specific and were still fulfilled, particularly the Messianic prophesies Jesus fulfilled.

[ScAvenger001]

YOU SHOULD ALL BE UNITARIANS
end
Since you appear to be new here, I'll settle for just a warning: leave the stupid in the otf.

[kreket]

Then I started to see the hypocrisy from alot of christians. The store owner mostly... she was extremely judgemental first off...

Then there are people like my grandmother who proclaim to be good christian people but are so racist it would make you sick.

Personally I belive in God, but thats as far as I go... I dont preach, hell I cant remember the last time I read a bible or prayed, but I still belive there is a higher being.

I think that you are spreading the word of loving thy neighbour, with or without christianity attached. If that's not good enough for the old beard in the sky, we'll just have to replace him with an atheist with good values.


I might remember this the wrong way around, but didn't Jesus the allmighty saviour turn dishwater into wine? For some reason that just cheers me up when thinking of an afterlife in some form of heaven.

[kreket]

Hitler, who led a 'sanctioned crusade', according to the propaganda of the reich, I believe. The war on the Balkans. Utter bullshit, probably with little to no basis, but good propaganda for the third reich.

(The two previous reich's being Charle the Great's imperium occupying the Germans and the Holy Roman Empire. All according to the propaganda in Nazi-Germany. Anyone know if Charlemagne was merovingian or karolingian?)