U.S. bid for extradition

[Canuk]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1122667113835_118076313/?hub=TopStories

I'm quite surprised no one's brought this issue up yet to be honest. The implications of this going down and the message it sends is that the United States government can ask that Canada extradite anyone they don't like, anyone who breaks an American law even if it isn't within their borders.

Quick summary of the situation:
A prominent Canadian marijuana advocate has been arrested by Canadian police by request of the American government. He runs a website through which he sells pot seeds which is perfectly legal in this country. In fact, Health Canada regularly tells registered medical smokers to "look online" for pot seeds. This man owns the largest online store for marijuana seeds so in effect they are turning these people to him. Since he is on the internet Canadians are not his only customers, i.e. he has American (among other) buyers. If he is extradited he faces life in prison and possibly even the death penalty as he can be classified under American law as a "drug kingpin". The money laundering issue was brought up because the profits from his store are used to fund his marijuana store in B.C...he is the leader of the Marijuana Party in B.C.

The Canadian government is actually considering extraditing him (they wouldn't have arrested him in the first place since he hasn't broken any Canadian law) which is absolutely ludicrous! Have they lost all notions of sovereignty? A CANADIAN man who in effect has broken no law may face the death penalty in AMERICA...something not even constitutional here. In fact, as far as I can tell it would be unconstitutional to extradite him unless the U.S. gives a guarantee not to pursue charges for him being a "drug kingpin".

[Daffy]

This is the Canadian governments fault just as much as America's. This is assuming America didn't threaten the Canadian government, which I bet is a wrong assumtion.

[edit] And the guy should have seriously checked who he was shipping to. If he was smart he wouldn't send to America.

[[Political] Slayer]

He shouldn't sell them to the US, it is illegal here, so he is breaking our own laws, which therefore, he faces our punishments. IMHO, I think marajuana should be legalized, not that I would smoke it, but I don't think the government has any right to act as a big daddy to all the people who want to ruin their own health. Plus, we would save millions of dollars, and thousands of jail cells by not arresting them.

[Canuk]

The Canadian government is actually considering extraditing him which is absolutely ludicrous!
I don't mean to imply that the American government is the only one at fault. I'd like to take this opportunity to bash both governments real good.
Fact is though, the U.S. has no right to make that bid considering he hasn't broken any law in the U.S!

e: nanoed by Slayer

He's selling them online! He is not residing in the U.S. and therefore not breaking any law in the U.S! Until there is some sort of international law governing the internet (which I pray to God there won't be) that every country in the world signs onto they have no right. Sure, what he's doing may be illegal in the U.S. but he's not in the U.S. nor is he an American citizen!

[Daffy]

Slayer']He shouldn't sell them to the US, it is illegal here, so he is breaking our own laws, which therefore, he faces our punishments. IMHO, I think marajuana should be legalized, not that I would smoke it, but I don't think the government has any right to act as a big daddy to all the people who want to ruin their own health. Plus, we would save millions of dollars, and thousands of jail cells by not arresting them.
I agree, but we will just have to wait until our generation comes into power.

[Canuk]

Don't worry Daf, there are more than enough crackpots in our generation that'll try to put a lid on any sort of attempt to legalize marijuana.

[-V-]

I say no reason why Canada should extradite him. I mean he hasn't broken any canadian law, nor do I believe he's broken an US law, since what he is doing is not commited on US soil. My view of this situation is akin to Saudi Arabia asking for the arrest and extradition of Jenna Jameson because she's unfaithful (which is a real crime in that wierd-ass place punishable by death).

[knute]

He's selling them online! He is not residing in the U.S. and therefore not breaking any law in the U.S! Until there is some sort of international law governing the internet (which I pray to God there won't be) that every country in the world signs onto they have no right. Sure, what he's doing may be illegal in the U.S. but he's not in the U.S. nor is he an American citizen!

If he's shipping maryjane seeds to the US, presumably he's falsifying customs forms, since I doubt many boxes labeled "weed seed" would make it past the border. That's illegal. And he's selling weed in the United States. That's illegal.

Nonetheless, I find it hard to get my panties in a wad either way the situation could work out.

[FaKToR]

I don't see how he's broken the law here. Oh and marijuana needs to be legalized.

[knute]

I don't see how he's broken the law here. Oh and marijuana needs to be legalized.

Well I presume falsifying customs forms is against some kind of Canadian law. Maybe they don't care.

But he caused marijuana to be transported to the US, breaking US laws, in the US. That's why the US wants to extradite him.

[FaKToR]

Well there's really not enough information to go on here.

[M123]

Not many countries extradite people that they think did nothing wrong.

[-V-]

Eh, I'd trade in all the drunks for stoners. Drunk people get into fights, rape, and murder. Stoned dudes go steal a bag 'o chips and drive 20 miles under the limit causing a nussance.

[Daywalker]

He is selling a substance that is illegal in the US to US customers. So he has obviously broken some law. That'd be like me shipping weapons that are legal in the US to Canada. I don't know if life inprisionment or the death penalty is proper in this situation, I'd just give him a large fine and if he continues to be careless to where he ships then maybe you could try to arrest him.

[kreket]

The postal services have got to be the greatest hackzors of all smuggler kind.

They even have government officials waiting to send the package on, cooperating at every level!

Seriously, someone needs to check on security this kind of thing. Anyone remember the sixty minutes story on our dear beloved antivehicle sniper rifle and the raufoss ammunition?

[Fearfisch]

It's true. He did. Where is that big lug, anyway?
He was saying something about getting a particular job he wanted, along with no or less severe demotion, and transfering sometime soon, that could be taking up his time.

[GoatChomper]

This is assuming America didn't threaten the Canadian government, which I bet is a wrong assumtion.
Huh? With what?

[Daffy]

Huh? With what?
Saying "if you don't give him to us we'll.... *choose your own adventure*"

I'm tired, sorry if this isn't a good answer, or even an answer at all.

[Toastar]

Canada WILL NOT extradite anyone that faces the death penalty except that one dude to California because the US made trade threats or something similiar.

[knute]

Canada WILL NOT extradite anyone that faces the death penalty except that one dude to California because the US made trade threats or something similiar.

Well, I suppose the technicallity might still hold them up, but there's almost 0 chance the dude would be sentenced to death.

[Shinobi]

I've met marc emery and know people that have worked for him,, I dont like him at all, but I still dont think he should be extradited,, I thought it had to be illeagle in both countries,, I know for sure that it's legal in canada, and I'm not sure about the US but I know in the westcoast you can buy seeds at a lot of stores,, so meh...

[HarryB]

Canada WILL NOT extradite anyone that faces the death penalty except that one dude to California because the US made trade threats or something similiar.


He's up for life.


While I don't think he should serve life for selling pot, he should be punished for doing something illegal that anyone with half a brain can clearly see will fail.

[Toastar]

I thought I read further up he could be sentenced to death for being a kingpin whatever...

I also forgot that if the crime is not illegal in Canada, they will not extradite someone.

3. (1) A person may be extradited from Canada in accordance with this Act and a relevant extradition agreement on the request of an extradition partner for the purpose of prosecuting the person or imposing a sentence on -- or enforcing a sentence imposed on -- the person if ...

(b) the conduct of the person, had it occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence that is punishable in Canada,

(i) in the case of a request based on a specific agreement, by imprisonment for a maximum term of five years or more, or by a more severe punishment, and

(ii) in any other case, by imprisonment for a maximum term of two years or more, or by a more severe punishment, subject to a relevant extradition agreement.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/E-23.01/57313.html#rid-57336
Canadian Extradiction Act

[Kak]

Doesn't the Patriot Act say something about this?

[Toastar]

maybe you'd like to find out kak :P

but the patriot act is american law, not canadian.


The funniest thing Ive heard lately is that Americans do NOT have to feed people if they detain them in an airport and they have no rights.

[BlindSite]

Canadians don't want to extradite him then they won't. If the US government pressures the canadians and they buckle then that says a lot more about canada than it does about the US. At the end of the day whinging about them making requests and attempting to get the guy extradited whilst at the same time I might add making unsupported claims about why or how they're going about this is rather foolish. Wait till something comes of this issue before making harsh and unsupported judgements.

[FaKToR]

I found an interesting parallel. Germany has banned the publication and sale of Mein Kampf. It was found in 1999 that you could purchase the book through amazon.com (oddly enough it made it to the top-ten list for Germany on amazon.com). Since that is technically a violation of Germany's laws regarding the sale of Mein Kampf, should amazon.com have been prosecuted even though it is not illegal to sell it in the United States?

[HarryB]

I found an interesting parallel. Germany has banned the publication and sale of Mein Kampf. It was found in 1999 that you could purchase the book through amazon.com (oddly enough it made it to the top-ten list for Germany on amazon.com). Since that is technically a violation of Germany's laws regarding the sale of Mein Kampf, should amazon.com have been prosecuted even though it is not illegal to sell it in the United States?


If they really want to stop it, they should reword the law from sale to purchase. Thus they wouldn't have to go after the people buying it instead of the people selling it.

[Canuk]

No, Amazon should not be prosecuted as all they're doing is packaging a book and sending it to Germany. Would they prosecute some random family member or friend for mailing a copy from out of the country?
All this guy was doing was putting marijuana seeds in the mail and sending them to the U.S. Apparently the U.S. side doesn't screen their mail very well. That's no fault of the person sending the mail.
He can be tried as a drug kingpin and probably will be if he is extradited.

[GoatChomper]

All this guy was doing was putting marijuana seeds in the mail and sending them to the U.S. Apparently the U.S. side doesn't screen their mail very well. That's no fault of the person sending the mail.
Huh? That translates as "it's only unlawful if you get caught", and is just as specious.

Mexican law forbids the sale or transport of the narcotics for which the Gulf and Sinaloa cartels are having themselves a merry little war in Nuevo Laredo....the fact that some of it gets into this country in no way absolves their actions under Mexican law.

[Moe_Rahn]

Mexican law forbids the sale or transport of the narcotics for which the Gulf and Sinaloa cartels are having themselves a merry little war in Nuevo Laredo....the fact that some of it gets into this country in no way absolves their actions under Mexican law.
The difference being, what this guy is doing isn't unlawful in Canada. Thus there is nothing to be absolved (in Canada, at least).

[GoatChomper]

Y hello thar, you missed the part about him knowingly violating the laws of the nation to which he was sending these items. Canuk adopted a specious stance that absolves one of culpability by mere virtue of not being found out, akin to you being culpable if I steal your gun and shoot somebody with it a la South Africa's criminal law.

[BlindSite]

Yet I still believe this is a dead issue. If the Canadians want to extradite him they will. The US obviously wants him to be prosecuted, no doubt to send a message more than much else but its a dead issue. He was committing a crime per US law, if the canadians wish to cooperate thats fine, if they wish to be seen as a haven for criminals then that's fine too...

[Moe_Rahn]

Y hello thar, you missed the part about him knowingly violating the laws of the nation to which he was sending these items. Canuk adopted a specious stance that absolves one of culpability by mere virtue of not being found out, akin to you being culpable if I steal your gun and shoot somebody with it a la South Africa's criminal law.
So what exactly did your example have to do with anything? Those involved in it were quite clearly violating the laws of both countries.

[Toastar]

if the canadians wish to cooperate thats fine, if they wish to be seen as a haven for criminals then that's fine too...

so... not having a law that another country has a law for makes us a haven for criminals? great

I guess we're also a haven for criminals wanting to buy Cornflakes on sunday, because its illegal to do so in Columbus, Ohio.

[BlindSite]

So what, canada shouldn't care that drug trafficers view it as a safe zone to sell their product free from prosecution. I can see the logic in that...

[Catamite]

If they really want to stop it, they should reword the law from sale to purchase. Thus they wouldn't have to go after the people buying it instead of the people selling it.

You're dodging the question. The US goes after both those who sell and buy weed, same as Germany goes after those who buy and sell the Hitlerpedia.

So what, canada shouldn't care that drug trafficers view it as a safe zone to sell their product free from prosecution. I can see the logic in that...

DEAR SWEET JESUS. If drug traffickers do that then they will be able to SELL DRUGS TO PEOPLE and people will be able to BUY THE DRUGS THAT THEY ARE SELLING which would pretty much BRING THE WORLD TO A SCREECHING HALT.

Woulnd't it just eliminate (or since Org Crime's been feeding at this teat for a long time, ease) the non-victimless crime associated with the current drug trade?

[BlindSite]

DEAR SWEET JESUS. If drug traffickers do that then they will be able to SELL DRUGS TO PEOPLE and people will be able to BUY THE DRUGS THAT THEY ARE SELLING which would pretty much BRING THE WORLD TO A SCREECHING HALT.

Woulnd't it just eliminate (or since Org Crime's been feeding at this teat for a long time, ease) the non-victimless crime associated with the current drug trade?

non victimless, you do realise that means it is NOT a victimless crime?

Drug users get ill, drugs are not healthy, getting sick means you need care, part of which is financed by the government and the taxpayers. Why do you not understand this? Stopping the trade takes out stress on funds.

It is illeagal for now, it should be that simple, against the law, laws should not be broken. Break the law, face the punishment.

[-V-]

Although why should we care if Joe Shmoe who lives in a trailer park ends his life with an accidental overdose or a dose of #00 buckshot?

My view is sort of the same as with under-age binge drinking: If your dumb enough to drink yourself into alcohol poisoning, you deserve to die. (P.S. People don't normally go suck down half a .5L of rum that have anything resembling a brain)

[Toastar]

So what, canada shouldn't care that drug trafficers view it as a safe zone to sell their product free from prosecution. I can see the logic in that...

well gee, take a hint, its not illegal here so obviously WE DONT CARE ABOUT MARIJUANA THAT MUCH.

ontario even decriminalized it for a while

[Catamite]

non victimless, you do realise that means it is NOT a victimless crime?

Drug users get ill, drugs are not healthy, getting sick means you need care, part of which is financed by the government and the taxpayers. Why do you not understand this? Stopping the trade takes out stress on funds.
I have yet to have a friend hopsitalized for marijuana use and I know quite a few people who TOKE IT UP 4:20 LOL. Of course it's going to damage your lungs in the long run but so does cigarette smoke and heavy pollution, and any other form of breathable sediment.

Now other drugs can be different (heroin etc). Maybe it should or shouldn't be payable in the end by the taxpayers but the "war on drugs" is (I would imagine) more costly since it involves not only treatment but the antidrug advertising, Congress' time, law enforcement dollars and time, prosecution dollars and time, courtroom time, prison space and money, all in ADDITION to whatever measure of treatment we provide addict

On top of all that we have to keep in mind that by criminalizing the drug trade, we don't STOP drugs from being trafficked, we just make sure that anyone who comes into contact with it, even innocently, is at risk. There are some very ruthless people involved with it and some of them probably won't hesitate to gun down a guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time just to keep him from talking.

Plus, any drug dollars spent in the the country in question aren't taxed and don't go to the help the economy of the country in question. If you beleive the anti-drug guys' own ads, some of the drug sellers are terrorists. Legalizing the drug trade would hurt, not help, these folks as they woudln't be able to compete with legitimate companies.

It is illeagal for now, it should be that simple, against the law, laws should not be broken. Break the law, face the punishment.
Not all laws are just and not all laws deserve to be adhered to and others inherently deserve to be broken by anyone with a shred of morality or courage.

In this case all that's (possibly) illegal is that he falsified some customs forms. It's fairly common and it's possible he didn't even do that (if he listed them as "Medical Supplies" it would not technically be false even though he intentionally deceived)

[GoatChomper]

non victimless, you do realise that means it is NOT a victimless crime?
Whoa, wait a minute right there.....it's a crime merely by virtue having been declared one.
Drug users get ill, drugs are not healthy, getting sick means you need care, part of which is financed by the government and the taxpayers. Why do you not understand this? Stopping the trade takes out stress on funds.
You will find far, far more people draining public resources due to the effects of consuming a legal drug called ethanol. Unless you're willing to enact a ban on any and every substance that has a potential for deleterious effects, claiming a public health benefit just does not work.

We had a huge test called the Volstead Act in this country from 1920 to 1933, and it failed miserably except for making organized criminal organizations fantastically rich (said organizations do not generally pay taxes, I might add) and employing enforcement agents.


Oh, what a night
Late December, back in '63
What a very special time for me
As I remember what a night

Oh, what a night
You know, I didn't even know her name
But I was never gonna be the same
What a lady, what a night

I got a funny feeling when she walked in the room
As I recall it ended much too soon

Oh, what a night
Hypnotizing, mesmerizing me
She was everything I dreamed she'd be
Sweet surrender, what a night

I felt a rush like a rolling ball of thunder
Straining my head around and taking my body under

Oh, I got a funny feeling when she walked in the room
As I recall it ended much too soon

Oh, what a night
Why'd it take so long to see the light
Seemed so wrong, but now it seems so right
What a lady, what a night
Substitute the original lyrics' "33" for "63" for enlightenment.

[pro kossu]

You will find far, far more people draining public resources due to the effects of consuming a legal drug called ethanol. Unless you're willing to enact a ban on any and every substance that has a potential for deleterious effects, claiming a public health benefit just does not work.


Not to mention the cost of trying to control drugs, ie' the war on drugs.

[BlindSite]

Marijuana smoking, selling and posessing is illeagal. Just because many people in canada do not care, that does not mean the rest of the world should magically get on board and agree. Again, if canada wants to harbour criminals from another country who continue to commit the same ats deemed criminal that's fine they just shouldn't expect any favours.

[GoatChomper]

Marijuana smoking, selling and posessing is illeagal. Just because many people in canada do not care, that does not mean the rest of the world should magically get on board and agree.
Fine and dandy, but you're getting little out of it beyond making thugs rich and providing employment to law enforcement. It's a net loss.

[Toastar]

Marijuana smoking, selling and posessing is illeagal. Just because many people in canada do not care, that does not mean the rest of the world should magically get on board and agree. Again, if canada wants to harbour criminals from another country who continue to commit the same ats deemed criminal that's fine they just shouldn't expect any favours.

What favours are we asking, its the USA asking for favours. They want to take one of our citizens and charge him with a crime that isn't illegal in our country.

The USA actually wants to take some of our land (http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=4bd617f0-0c00-49e4-b3e4-f0a1c0a3bcd4)too.

[siddy]

What favours are we asking, its the USA asking for favours. They want to take one of our citizens and charge him with a crime that isn't illegal in our country.

The USA actually wants to take some of our land (http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=4bd617f0-0c00-49e4-b3e4-f0a1c0a3bcd4)too.

wow, this is startin to piss me off. what the hell happened to soverignty? it hope the states with GTFO of canada. we're not policing them.

[-V-]

You know, I'm not canadian, but even that pisses me off too!

Marijuana smoking, selling and posessing is illeagal (In the United states). Just because many people in canada do not care, that does not mean the rest of the world should magically get on board and agree.
However, say what about The Netherlands? Pot there is perfectly legal. Does that mean that US agents should travel to Amsterdam and arrest the whole population because they are doing something that is considered a crime in a foreign country? What about Saudi Agents traveling to the US and rounding up women that aren't wearing burkas, since that is a crime in Saudi Arabia, but not in the US. Or what about Australia's equivalent to the ATF traveling to the US and arresting certain gun owners, because the type of weapon they own in the US is illegal to own under Australian law. See my point?